IMSLP talk:Categorization/Project Members/archive14


Riccius, Psalm 130

I've tagged this "mch" but the page shows mixed chorus. It's for men's chorus. What is wrong? (Steltz)

Just a mistake in the encoding for that tag, but it's fixed now — P.davydov 12:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Steltz 14:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Kaspar Forster, Ah peccatores graves

Grove Music describes this as a dramatic biblical dialogue. If it were based on a psalm, I would chicken out and just put that as the tag, but, alas, it isn't. Suggested tag? Steltz 14:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Either "sacred cantatas" or "sacred choruses"? — P.davydov 16:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
I have a question about that -- what constitutes a cantata vs. an oratorio, vs the generic chorus? Steltz 22:06, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
If there's absolutely nothing to go on by way of subtitle or description for a religious choral work, I'd use "sacred choruses" for works without solo voices, "oratorios" for works that include soloists performing named roles, and "sacred cantatas" for everything else. On that basis I've reconsidered what I said above, and on reflection a 'dramatic biblical dialogue' is probably closer to "oratorios" — P.davydov 22:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Ernst, Trio pour un violon

This has three staves, though it does say "un" violon. Any violinists here that could say whether it REALLY could be done by one violinist? Steltz 15:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Probably it could, although it would be very difficult. (I wrote a forum post about this a month ago where I gave a possible explanation of how it could be played.) Cheers, KGill talk email 15:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians

I've tagged this "dictionaries ; biographies" and the biographies is coming up as an unknown tag. Is this the first time it's been used, or have I done something else wrong? Steltz 05:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Steltz. This is not the first time the biography tag has been used. The problem is that the tag is not actually "biographies" but rather "biography" (in the singular form). Nonetheless, I've gone ahead and fixed it. Thanks for the heads up! Lndlewis10 05:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Could you please change the tagging page, then? It says to use "biographies". Thanks, Steltz 06:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Hm... your right, it should be changed. I'm not a librarian though, so my permissions in the categorization project are supposed to be limited to obvious tags, and fixing what I'm certain is an error (though I guess this qualifies). I went ahead and changed it, and hopefully the man won't get mad for whatever reason ;) Lndlewis10 06:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Grrr  :-) You're correct that it should be "biographies", and I've changed the root "biography" tag to conform so that any pages so tagged will start showing up with "Unknown tag" errors, and can be fixed — P.davydov 06:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Auenbrugger, Keyboard Sonata in E flat

Grove lists Auenbrugger's "only" known work as "Sonata per il clavicembalo o forte piano". On the basis of that, should this title be changed, since it must be that work? Steltz 06:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The current title of "Keyboard Sonata" is OK, as this is what we use where a single keyboard instrument isn't specified — P.davydov 06:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Grove, various books on Beethoven

These are on the symphonies -- do we have a tag for analysis, or do they just go under music history? Steltz 09:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

We have "music criticism", which includes some degree of analysis. Perhaps there's a case for a new tag for "music analysis", but have you any thoughts on how we could define this to avoid confusion with "music criticism"? — P.davydov 10:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Music analysis that isn't used for critical purposes doesn't make judgments on good or bad, it simply gives the structure/chordal analysis, etc. of the piece. This would entail someone reading enough of the book to know what the purpose of the analysis is. As annoying as that might be for the tagging team, I think it's an important distinction, though there is also the possibility of using both tags if there is sufficient reason. By the way, having read a bit of the Beethoven and His Nine Symphonies now, it is history and analysis combined, no criticism whatsoever, and the preface says it is aimed at the amateur audience. For the meantime, I've tagged it "music history ; music analysis ; en" Steltz 09:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Ukranian language, Lysenko folksong arrangements

We need a tag for this, please. Steltz 09:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm surprised this hasn't come up before, but it's "uk". I've updated the tagging page list, which was lagging behind a little — P.davydov 10:09, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Wagner, Mein Leben

We have biographies; how about autobiographies as a subset? Steltz 07:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Good idea — P.davydov 16:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Radeck, Courante Sarabande and Engellischer Mascharada

I've never seen keyboard tablature before, so I need help with the tagging. Is this for one keyboard player or more? This also applies to Scheidemann's Englische Mascharada. Steltz 12:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

As you might have gathered by my silence, I don't have a clue either  :-) Maybe someone on the forums can help? — P.davydov 21:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

These are most likely for one player; keyboard tablature was most often used by organists, and pretty much a solely Germanic phenomenon. --Fynnjamin 10:00, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Friedlander, Bedenklichkeiten

Friedlander did a lot of work in folksong musicology. The uploader for Bedenklichkeiten pointed out that Friedlander didn't compose this. Should this perhaps be under "anonymous" (probably if the decision is yes, then it is the same for everything in his folksong editions). There doesn't seem to be evidence that he added anything, and only arranged them. Steltz 20:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that if a composer puts together a collection of his own folksong arrangements, then the compilation itself is considered a 'creative work', to which he owns the copyright. So in those circumstances I'd leave compilations under the name of the arranger/editor — P.davydov

Wagner's Prose Works

At 8 volumes, there is an awful lot here. I will give it an "autobiographies" tag, since vol.1 contains an autobiographical sketch. The rest seems to be a collection of essays or treatises. I think it's been mentioned before, but do we have a tag for either of those? I don't see any on the tagging list. Steltz 06:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The tags are intended to indicate the subjects of the essays or treatises, and "autobiographies", "music criticism", "music history", "music theory" and "performance practice" would all seem appropriate in this case, plus the special "compilations" tag where individual works have been grouped together as one — P.davydov 10:32, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

tag for sitar?

James Thomas' In the Presence of the Grand uses sitar. It's a septet, with the instruments being one on a part, so it needs a tag. Suggestions? We could conceivably get more music for sitar, but at the moment, this is the only piece we have that uses it. Steltz 06:34, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

A sitar seems to merit its own tag at least as much as the arpeggione, which also makes only one appearance :-) How about "sit" ? — P.davydov 10:22, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Good for me, will tag it soon. 05:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Brahms, Horn Trio

Someone just posted to the Bugs forum that the viola version of Brahms Horn Trio doesn't come up under the violin/viola/piano list. In fact it does, but possibly not quite in the right way. It is within an edition that is normal, so ==Arrangements and Transcriptions== can't be used for the whole edition. Also, it is unknown who transcribed the horn part, but certainly not Brahms (and Grove Music doesn't list this version). It is kosher to place the viola part on its own under the ==Arrangements and Transcriptions== header and add "for use with the Peters ca.1920 edition"? Steltz 05:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure the viola part wasn't by Brahms? Margaret McCorkle's catalogue dsecribes this as for "Klavier, Violine, Waldhorn (oder Violoncello oder Viola)", and gives the impression that the composer inserted the viola part inserted into the second edition — P.davydov 06:50, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
I was going by what Grove lists. How academically sound is McCorkle considered to be? We could leave it tagged as is and put in the comments that according to her Brahms did the viola part.Steltz 12:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Brahms authorized the alternate versions (letter to Simrock), I gather... - maybe a reasonably good recent Brahms book (though Joshua Garrett's dissertation on the performance of the horn trio takes MacDonald to task for some things he says about the horn trio, he is probably reliable about this-except I forget what MacDonald did say about this!...) will have evidence whether Brahms wrote the transcriptions/versions, too. Eric 14:20, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Hoffmann, Norbert, Barkarole no.2

This has a solo violin part, but can't be tagged "vn orch" because it isn't really an orchestra accompaniment. It is the following: solo violin + flute, clarinet in B, bass clarinet in B, alto sax in E, horn in F, tuba, piano, accordion, 1 percussion player (vibraphone, 3 tom toms, bass drum). Suggestions? Steltz 12:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)'

I was going to suggest something like what's used for brass bands - ww br perc - but then when trying to add the solo violin and piano got into a mess of something I hint at in my comment below... Eric 14:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
I thought of that, except that implies multiple people on a part, which this isn't. Steltz 15:46, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
I think it's the definition of solo violin that's the problem, as this implies that the rest of the instruments form a separate group. If that's the case, then I think it should be "vn orch" (as woodwind, brass, percussion and keyboards are all present, even if the strings aren't). But it might equally be tagged as a work for ten players if the violin isn't singled out as a solo instrument in the score — P.davydov 18:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

tag order things on MediaWiki:Genres

Ok, this is off... Is it 'org br perc' - which occurs in two places - or 'br org' (perc) - which also occurs in two places? etc. - I think people have been inserting tags without looking at the preferred order (and also need to insert categories into the category hierarchy when creating tags, but that's another thing. That's people plural...) Thanks :) Eric 14:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Solo instruments always come before an ensemble of players, so it should be "org orch", "org str", "org br", "org br perc", etc. If the organ is just one of a group of solo instruments, then it comes last, e.g. "2vn va vc org" — P.davydov 18:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Should the 'br org' (and ones containing ones be looked at as possibly needing to be fixed for consistency? Eric 19:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Ideally, yes, if you're willing? — P.davydov 20:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll try, though the number of places where organ comes last is pretty confusingly large (and then there's other things about this- well, if I goof, please correct me. I'll just fix the genres page of course rather than trying to fix every work page that refers to it so that if I fix it incorrectly they won't have to be, well, doubly-fixed... unknown tags being fixed on a regular basis anyhow...) Eric 20:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Will have to get back to that soon!- have only just gotten started and now the list looks even less consistent - bad me :( Eric 13:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Needing advice on Melartin, 6 Pieces for Piano, op.7

There is a small difference of opinion on a tag for this, so I am going to ask Davydov to give his opinion. The comment says "Composer's title is not Stücke (pieces), but Späne, "Shavings" (as in off a workbench)", which apparently was taken as "sketches". I thought it was a mistake so I changed it to the generic "pieces", which will work for anything that has nothing in the title that is indicative. I must say, I don't quite see the connection between shavings and sketches . . . Davydov? Steltz 15:46, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Nor me. I'd say 'pieces' is the correct tag in the circumstances — P.davydov 18:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


Just to apologise for not being around so much recently, which is due to a chronic case of tennis elbow that makes it painful to type (and I don't even play tennis!). But I still read messages here regularly, and hope to be back tagging again once the inflammation has subsided... — P.davydov 18:39, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

2 orchestras

Spohr's Symphony no.7 uses 2 orchestras, as do a few other pieces I can think of. Is there enough reason to create a "2orch" tag or not? Steltz 05:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, in the circumstances — P.davydov 06:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Conforti's treatise on ornamentation

This is for voice or treble instrument, but the subject on the treatise is ornamentation. Suggestions? (What happened to discussion on a performance practice tag? Can't remember). Steltz 20:39, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

organ 2-hands

I think but am not sure that one publication I uploaded recently was an arrangement of a piece for organ without pedals , for regular hands-and-feet organ. is there a purpose do you think for an organ-manuals-only tag of some sort for entire opus groups for the manuals alone?... (I think some of Adolf Friedrich Hesse's opus numbers fall under that category, if the scores aren't just 2-staff shorthand/tablature-ish things for works that can only be played with pedal- I can't tell, not being a performer) Eric 21:49, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't think so. It's not like you need a different instrument to play this music -- you just sit at the organ you normally play and don't use the pedals. The lack of use of pedals can go in the comments field. Steltz 21:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Hrm. piano left-hand has its own tag, but - ok. Eric 22:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

boy sopranos

Dyson's Sinfonietta The Unknown specifies boy soprano. I know that with altos, we aren't separating the different types, but with male vs. female soprano there might be a case for it, since it is a matter of gender first and range second. Any opinions/suggestion?Steltz 21:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

It’s not always an issue of gender: the principal difference is age. Perhaps use tr for (child) treble, which is not gender-specific, unlike boy soprano/girl soprano. Cheers Philip @ © talk 23:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

scales and arpeggios

Tag as "studies"? In this case, Manookian, though there are other scale books that will be in the public domain. Steltz 21:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

arranger re-names piece

Roussel wrote a Vocalise no.2 which Arthur Hoerée arranged for flute or oboe or clarinet or viola or cello, with piano or orchestra. We don't have the Vocalise no.2, but I will ask for it in the scores forum. Assuming there is no difference -- just the original melody with the original accompaniment, should this go under a page for the Vocalise? The aria page can redirect to the Vocalise page. Steltz 07:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

writings tags

Since it doesn’t give a guide on the tagging page, what is the Performance practice tag for? It puts me in mind of the modern historically-informed practice movement, none of which will be pd-us, eu or ca for some decades yet, I am guessing... Eric 12:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

This tag applies to books written about performance practice (modern or historical), of which there are a few — P.davydov 19:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh that's right, CPE Bach wrote a very famous one now that I think about it, as did others... thanks. And (not quite topically in this box here :) ) welcome to the team, Fynnjamin, if I may say :) :) Eric 19:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

New member

Please welcome Fynnjamin to the tagging team!

I'm sorry that my own involvement is still very limited, as the damage to my tendons is taking ages to mend  :-( — P.davydov 19:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

It's sad to hear that, Davydov :-( (about your tendons, I mean) Perhaps one or more of the other librarians should start to regularly perform some of the critical tasks you did until recently, such as fixing the unknown tags and adding new ones? It's definitely a good thing that you're not exacerbating your condition, but at the same time it would probably be good to keep the list from falling too far behind. Cheers, KGill talk email 19:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome! I'll start off slowly. --Fynnjamin 21:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Baillot Violin School

Though not in the priority list, I noticed that this violin method has what appears to be a cello accompaniment for the majority of the studies; my Italian's not good enough to work out if it's specified as such in the text, although this note (before the first exercise) is interesting: "Il Basso delle Scale nelle seguente lezioni e stato fatto dal signor Cherubini." So perhaps Cherubini ought to be added as a co-author too. Should the tag 'vn vc' be added? --Fynnjamin 21:49, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Concertina & piano

When I put 'conc pf' for the Sidney Smith and Richard Blagrove pieces, the tag is unrecognised... --Fynnjamin 22:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

That's just because that tag it hasn't been used before, and needs to be 'registered' on the master list at MediaWiki:Genres. I wouldn't recommend you try this yourself, as it's very easy to crash the system, which is why only certain users are allowed to edit it. It's OK to have pages with "Unknown Tags", as they'll be dealt with eventually — P.davydov 07:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, ok, thanks. --Fynnjamin 10:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

In Nomine?

A tag for instrumental (and vocal?) In Nomines might be useful... perhaps in addition to other tag such as 'pieces'. I reckon it's enough of a work type/genre to justify a tag. --Fynnjamin 11:52, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The progenitor for this purely instrumental category is a vocal piece, namely the Benedictus of John Taverner’s Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas, but Taverner’ style of voice handling might as well be instrumental. If there were vocal re-arrangements of this, I’m not aware of them (nor are many of the history books): we've had a lot of these uploaded recently, so adding In nomine as a category of instrumental pieces would be worthwhile in my view. Cheers Philip @ © talk 22:16, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
We have to be very strict about what qualifies as a new category, in that they have to be on the Music Library Association List, or to be defined as a type of composition in Grove's Dictionary or similar authoritative sources. "In nomine" isn't on the MLA list, but Grove's definition is "Title given to a number of exclusively English instrumental compositions of the 16th and 17th centuries that use the Sarum antiphon Gloria tibi Trinitasas their cantus firmus".
If the only way to recognise this kind of work is by the title, then the category would be unnecessary. Otherwise members of the tagging team would have to examine each score to see whether it qualifies by including the said theme (which is beyond the call of duty!). So for practical reasons, it's probably better to place such works under "Pieces" for now. All works in the miscellaneous category "Pieces" should be reviewed when the tagging is more or less complete, to see whether there are grounds for grouping them into new categories, but until then we're trying to stick with those currently on the list — P.davydov 05:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Ok, yes that sounds sensible. --Fynnjamin 16:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

voices & lute

The tag 'v lute' comes up as 'For voices with keyboard'... --Fynnjamin 14:54, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems to be defined correctly in MediaWiki:Genres. Which page is affected? — P.davydov 15:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It's Robert Tailour's Sacred Hymns - still showing. --Fynnjamin 12:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I see the problem, and it's fixed now. But looking at the score it seems that this is written for 5 voices written in harmony (accompanied by the lute), so I've removed the extra tags — P.davydov 17:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
It's complex; a chunk of the book from Nanki Library is missing (it starts on p.17); Grove says it contains: "12 settings for voice, lyra viol in tablature and bass viol; three inner viol parts and a tablature for lute or orpharion are on subsequent pages and could not have been used in performances from a single copy of the book." Presumably the missing pages in the Nanki copy are the voice, lyra viol & bass viol pieces. As I suspected, the un-texted parts are likely to be instrumental (viols) rather than vocal. Should the tags be updated to reflect this? --Fynnjamin 22:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Flageolet tag

It's listed as 'flag' on the Tagging page, but this comes up as Unknown Tag. This is on O'Farrell's Pocket Companion for the Irish Pipes (Various), which mentions the instrum ent in the title page. --Fynnjamin 21:39, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Unknown tag may simply mean that a work has never been tagged before for this combination, i.e. flageolet solo. There’s a first time for everything... Cheers Philip @ © talk 23:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Harrington, Nonet

This piece seems to be tagged correctly, but the tags list at the bottom includes "for 9 players with continuo", though "bc" isn't one of the tags. Something else is wrong? Steltz 18:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I've just fixed a few things in the system list that were in the wrong place, of which this is one — P.davydov 21:41, 3 April 2011 (UTC)