User talk:Daphnis/archive4


Respighi - Feste Romane

Hi Daphnis, I'm italian and i want to download the complete score of "Feste Romane" by Ottorino Respighi. But when i try to download it the system give me an error (file marked as "TB"). Please, can you give me the complete score?


Please see this forum post:

So because this pubblication is made in 1929 it isn't of pubblic domain? Why? I read "Non-PD US", so United States, not European Union.... So in Italy this score should be of pubblic domain. Why this score is marked as "TB"? Technical block? What is it?


Uhm, i see. My question is: is there a -private- way to get this score? I repeat, i'm italian, not american, and this score in Italy is of pubblic domain, i've checked it.

No, I do not privately send my scores. Daphnis 12:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


they arent YOUR scores. why even bother then.

They are MY scores. I own the material and I made the scans and edited the images myself. Instead of complaining, why not support an Italian company like Ricordi and buy a copy for less than €30 online, or wait like everyone else for them to become available here. Daphnis 14:49, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

My Dear, the music belongs to everyone..... you should know better than me... And please, don't "heat up". Period.

No, the music does not belong to 'everyone', not if you're in the US. And we have no way of verifying whether or not you're actually in the US. This site does not encourage illegal activity. KGill talk email 22:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to make illegal things/actions. kgill, you're an admin, right? well, check my status with your admin's powers. The music is a universal language. The music REALLY belongs to everyone, americans or not. If you say otherwise,'re need to open your eyes, and your ears :-) The music CANNOT be stopped. And....i said period. (why you keep talking to me? Mystery....XDXD Please i don't wanna to continue)

Firstly, there are no IP-checking measures available on this site, but even if there were, anyone can use a country-specific proxy. Secondly, you can argue 'universal language', 'belongs to everyone', or 'cannot be stopped' all you want, but I'm pretty sure that there are several dozen major publishers (all with highly trained legal staff) who would kind of disagree with you. KGill talk email 16:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

"Firstly, there are no IP-checking measures available on this site" Well, in my opinion, you're a liar: every administrator has an IP checker. "there are several dozen major publishers (...) who would kind of disagree with you." Yes, this is what is called "the power of money", similary just as sung by the PinkFloyds. Personal note: i don't think to be pleasant for you. So ok, i surrender, mister admin! Bye...

KGill has wrote to me: "Check this page before you call me a liar. Checkuser is an optional extension that is not part of this site. However, that is beside the point, since anyone can pretend they are from anywhere by using one of thousands of free proxies. This site also strives to maintain civility, so kindly refrain from personal attacks in the future. KGill talk email 21:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC) " Well, i don't trust you. "so kindly refrain from personal attacks in the future" this is a MENACE? Well, like admin you sucks. I don't want to continue, really. So stop to go against me please. This discussion was originally between me and daphnis. It's over. I said "period", "bye" and "it's over". So, shut up.

KGill's assessments have been correct and I stand by them. The bottom line is this piece is under copyright in the United States, and since we are currently voluntarily observing US copyright law, this piece is blocked, which means you'll have to find another way of obtaining it. This discussion ends now. Daphnis 22:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Debussy - Images pour Orchestre


I'm begining to wonder if we're going to need to break this up into 3 work-pages. I've got complete parts for all three just about ready to go here, and wonder if this page is going to be getting way to long as a result. There are also a couple of Peters Leipzig scores from the 1970s that will ultimately be added. Thanks for the Khamma upload!! It's a superb orchestration, in case you've not heard it. I wonder how much Debussy actually did? Briscoe seems to imply that Koechlin was only loosely supervised, with the composer (who had already been weakened by cancer by 1916) did very little if any actual scoring. Carolus 04:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, it sure would be nice to have tabbed pages right about now, wouldn't it? I suppose we could keep it in a single page (with well-defined bookmarks) until this makes the next revision. My understanding from the Lockspeiser (and elsewhere) suggests there was some slight re-composition and orchestration from partial short-score supervised by Debussy. And yes, I do have a recording and it's only too bad it's under appreciated and under performed...I'd love to have a shot at it! Daphnis 04:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

R & J

HI Daphnis,

What's the latest on your upload of Roméo & Juliette? Any chance to see this score available soon? Thanks.

Probably not, unfortunately. Daphnis 19:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

hello Daphnis,

downloading "R+J" score is impossible. i just see the index page or the first score sheet. why ? i use Firefox and live in Spain, where this score belongs to the public domain. thank you for help. mushhushu

First of all, NO Prokofiev is public domain in Spain as they are a member of the EU. Second, the same issue effecting Romeo & Juliette effects other works. For more information, read the two links I provided above in the Respighi conversation. Daphnis 21:58, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

sorry, i have forgotten to precise : the "R&J" symphony from Berlioz. mushhushu--Mushhushu 22:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Then there is something with your version/installation of Acrobat reader. Make sure you're using the most current one, and if all else fails, download instead of opening inside the browser via the plugin. Daphnis 22:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


No.2 is a problem also. For Canada, first published less than 50 years ago (1965). For USA, items published with notice after 1963 are automatically renewed. Sorry, Carolus 04:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot about that one...Daphnis 04:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Instrument userboxes

Hi. Just for your info, I suggest you not use xx-4 templates on the instrument list (like the "ob-4" you posted) unless you play the instrument for a living, because it says "professional." ClassicalComposers 22:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That is correct. Daphnis 22:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleting Files

Hi. How do you delete files you upload by mistake? ClassicalComposers 01:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't, an admin does. However, unless there are copyright issues, it is frowned upon to ask for a file to be removed- in other words, just because someone wants it to be. KGill talk email 01:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Magnard, Symphony No.1

Just a few words to thank you for this nice and unexpected contribution.--Matthieu 06:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Symphony No.2 (manuscript also) coming in the week or so. Daphnis 13:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

ropartz string trio

Daphnis, como estas? sabes estoy interesado en tener el string trio de ropartz que tu haz subido, hay forma de que obtenga eso?....te pregunto además, si tienes material para viento y string trio..(oboe o flute).... muchas gracias.

Hola, no tengo material para viento y strings. Si interesado en tener el original, [comprala]. Daphnis 22:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Also re Magnard symphony 1

Thanks!! (I have Plasson's EMI recording. I already have the 3rd in score, courtesy of a Munich firm, but had never seen the 1st before, manuscript or otherwise.) (Thanks for uploading the Ropartz trio, also, which I had seen in score but not recently.) Eric 09:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Magnard 2

Bis repetita: thanks for your second incredible Magnard contribution ! I have a couple of questions about Maganard's symphonies: do you known if/where they have actually been edited ? do you have access to other manuscripts ? I also noticed something strange on page 53 (numberdc 55) of your scan of symphony n°1 : is it a problem with the copy you used or an unfortunate folding of the page in the scanner ? And last thing: sorry for my stupid CR of Bloch's Jewish Poems, the 1918 publication date obviously cancels the 1945 copyright claim.--Matthieu 18:16, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Matthieu. I don't know of any other edition or publication of the first 2 symphonies and I could probably gain access to other manuscripts, but for my purposes, I aim to gather his complete works. It just so happened that the first two symphonies were never published via engraving, so manuscripts were the only option. And the odd-looking page (numbered) 55 in the first symphony is correct. The notes appearing before the blank half are to proceed to the next page, and if you take a listen to your recording, this lines up properly. Daphnis 22:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth (and if it's permissible to mention) editions of 3 and 4 and some other (published) Magnard works are available here -- (pocket scores based on the original publications, with new prefaces in some cases.) Eric 01:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, and I'll be scanning 3 and 4 from their series soon (they're reprints, after all). Daphnis 01:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! I have their no.3 (a gift for writing a preface for one of their other editions- some Reger I think) but insufficient patience, software, etc. to scan it myself and make the background look good. It does confirm me in my belief that the listening experience is that much more heightened with an occasional score-reading, and explained what some have said about Magnard's "austerity" too :) Eric 01:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Indeed you are right about page 55 ! About the fact that symphonies 1 & 2 may never have been engraved, this is sad but not that much surprising. It is well known that Magnard had terrible difficulties to been recognized during his lifetime (even with the strong support of more established friends like Ropartz), and many of his compositions were published under his name. But if conducting an orchestra with a manuscript is perfectly possible, I just wonder how did the orchestras (e.g Plasson with Toulouse Capitole Orchestra of T. Sanderling with Malmo Symph. Orch.) managed to record these symphonies. Probably manual copies of parts have been produced for this purpose, which brings us back to the early days of occidental music. Seems that Magnard's time as not yet come... but, who knows, with IMSLP...--Matthieu 09:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunate discovery - Puccini

The libretti for both Suor Angelica and Gianni Schicchi, by Giovacchino Forzano (1884-1970), are evidently not free in Canada. We cannot have the vocal and full scores, or any excerpts which include text, available for download here. Ouch! Carolus 05:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

That is super disappointing. I wonder if Forzano fell into some copyright wormhole we could exploit. Daphnis 12:49, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

If there's one, I'll find it!! Carolus 04:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing negative on the wormhole? Nevertheless, I'll probably upload the full scores included in the Dover Il Trittico reprint and just let them chill. Daphnis 22:37, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand how can Il Tabarro be free, but the other two can't... they are of same 'age'. Anyway, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for Puccini's and Verdi's full scores... I was looking for 'Manon Lescaut' for some time. It was never performed in Serbia and I had vocal score only. Now, I finally have it. Thanks again. Eldarion 11:16 PM, 13 December 2009

Carolus was referring to its copyright status in Canada when he said 'free'. To be public domain in Canada, a work's last surviving author/editor/librettist/etc. must be dead for over 50 years; Forzano (the librettist for Suor and Gianni) died in 1970, and evidently he was not the librettist for Tabarro. Due to the location of the IMSLP servers, a work can only be allowed on the site if it is public domain in Canada. KGill talk email 22:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Finnish translation of main page

Hey Daphnis,

I asked Carolus about adding the Finnish translated main page to the list of languages (Etusivu), and I wasn't sure whether it would be better to have the IMSLP-links in the translated page linking to the English translations of pages, or whether I should have them as red links, linking to the creation of the respective Finnish pages - so Carolus suggested I ask some other admins for their opinion :) (I am asking Peter, Perlnerd, Leonard and you - I have asked the same question exactly to all of you)

Let me know what you think - on a sidenote, my Finnish is sloppy to say the best, so we would have to find a native Finnish speaker to do the translations of the pages, as my translations of the titles might not be accurate or correct.

-jujimufu 17:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

As most Finns, to my knowledge, have at least a working knowledge of English, I'd recommend linking internal links to the English versions if no X language version exists rather than linking to a null page. If this ends up being the case, is there some way where the wiki can publish a link on the top of a non X language asking the user for translation assistance? Just an idea... Daphnis 17:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Yeah - that makes sense. It would also be important for them to be able to access the informatio, whether in English or in Finnish.
I think it would be easy to create a little box on top of, say, the Contributor Portal page, which would be IFLANGed so would only appear on people visiting that page from Finland, and which would ask them to contribute to the translation, and which could in turn link to the new/under-construction page.
This actually sounds like a good idea (although it would not guarantee that every Finnish-speaking person would see it; just the Finnish people who happen to access that page from Finland, or who access that page from a browser with Finnish as the language of preference; but it would get more than 0 people, which is always good, and we can improve things later). Do you think it would be worth it proposing it to Feldmahler to see if we could create a template which could be put on every page which needs extra help with the translation in a particular language? So the same message would appear in Finnish for Finnish-speaking people, and in Chinese for Chinese-speaking people, asking them the same thing (if the Finnish and Chinese translations of a particular page were missing/lacking in something).
Let me know - I could start the template if you guys are busy; I know you're very busy doing a hefty part of the necessary work for IMSLP and I wouldn't like to burden you with more not-so-necessary stuff.
-jujimufu 19:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Aïda and Falstaff in FS

Dear Daphnis,

thanks again for extending the IMSLP collection with these excellent high-quality scans of two indispensable Verdi masterpieces. (I've been hanging out for Aïda for a while!) Best regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 03:50, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Bachianas Brasileiras No.6, W.392 (Villa-Lobos, Heitor)... question.

Hi Daphnis... I posted in the other archive area, but I'm not really sure how this section of the site works so I thought I would post again in this area. (sorry for double posting just wasn't sure you would see the other) I'm having problems with Bachianas Brasileiras No.6, W.392 (Villa-Lobos, Heitor) I keep getting a "copyright" error. Anyway you can help with this? Thanks for your time.

Hi Gridlock,
which bit of the following text on the Villa-Lobos page didn’t you read?
Regards, Philip

As Philip points out, this is not yet available for download and I do not privately email scores. Please read more carefully next time. Daphnis 22:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Philip... Thanks for the reply. I'm new to this site and still do not see ":THIS COMPOSER WILL BE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN IN CANADA ON 1 JANUARY, 2010. NO WORKS WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD UNTIL AT LEAST THAT TIME. DO NOT CONTACT ADMINISTRATORS OR UPLOADERS ASKING TO RELEASE THESE SCORES." anywhere on the page for this work. I was simply asking if there was something wrong with the file because it wouldn't download. I was not asking for an email of the file. But thanks for letting me know, just could have done it without the "you should have known" attitude. thanks

OK, that was, in fairness on the composer page - please don't be offended, we just assumed that you had gotten to the work page from the composer page. Sorry!-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 16:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Lekeu adagio

Hi Daphnis, and thanks for your kind message. By the way, thank you too for posting Ropartz's first symphony. Lekeu's adagio was more time consuming than I imagined at the beginning. In fact I started this project just after you posted the original edition. Since I uploaded it, I noticed that some bar numbers are missing. This is a problem with mixing postscript and truetype fonts. It is now fixed (using only postscript fonts). But still, I will upload the corrected version tomorrow because we have our first rehearsal tonight with this typeset and I'm almost sure some typos will emerge...--Matthieu 14:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Please help! :)

User:Carolus reccomended that I contact you ( )

I uploaded the complete version of the piano score for the ballet "The Little Humpbacked Horse" by Cesare Pugni. It was a PDF file, 27.1 MB total. The file doesn't seem to have uploaded properly ... is it to large? I would appreciate any assistance in shrinking the PDF file for upload. I have several other rare score I'd love to share. --MrLopez2681 16:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Can you tell me how you scanned this and using what hardware? Part of the reason it is so large is because there are all kinds of artifacts and "trash" in the image that add more bits unnecessarily. For example, towards the bottom of each page are a bunch of streaks. Are these present in the originals? Daphnis 16:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
this file is taken from scratched microfilm. I have since tried to re-upload, but no success. The file was downloaded from here -;jsessionid=5D9AB12BFFDAF7E8E0C54A4915FA17E6?institutionalItemVersionId=6005 . I also have an original of this score, which I have scanned, but the file is entirely to large for upload (239 MB). --MrLopez2681 04:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Is your scanned version of better quality? If so, can you tell me how you scanned this? By the way, the files you linked to above, the best I could do in file-size reduction is a combined PDF of just over 19MB. Provided you did not scan your original in color, we may be able to convert it to a usable format, but I require more information, even a sample page or two if possible. Daphnis 04:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


Cher Daphnis,

Bonjour, j'ai vu que vous parliez français, j'en profite.

Vous avez mis en ligne l'ouverture et l'acte 1 de la walkyrie de Wagner en version orchestre, il manque les deux actes suivants, serait-il possible que vous les scanniez s'il vous plait? Ce serait avec grand plaisir que je pourrais entamer la suite de l'analyse orchestrale de celle ci. Merci d'avance,

Un fervant admirateur. Diblawak

Je vais les scannier très bientôt, peut-être la semaine prochaine. Daphnis 18:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Je vous remercie énormément ! Diblawak 22:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Je viens de voir que vous avez ajouté l'acte II ! Vous êtes extrèmement gentil ! Merci !!! il ne me manque plus que l'acte III :) Diblawak 13:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Die Walküre est complète. Daphnis 23:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


Since things get added so fast now in such number that they disappear from the main page listing, I thought you might like to see the full score, which is now available. Carolus 23:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I did see it! I'm glad to see it available here; another fantastic addition to the site. Well done, and fine quality, to boot. Daphnis 03:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
@Carolus: That would be why we have featured scores...and why it's on the "upcoming" list ;)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


Cher Daphnis , C'est la première fois que je me connecte,mais je profite depuis un certain temps de vos excellentes contributions notamment pour tout ce qui concerne la musique française de 1860 à 1920 .Merci encore et bravo! Avez-vous d autres pièces pour piano du compositeur Jongen (Suite en forme de sonate ,Rondes Wallonnes , Sérénade , Préludes,etc...) Merci Lundi 9 novembre

Bon jour. Malheureusement, no, je n'ai pas d'autres œuvres de Jongen. Daphnis 16:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


Bonjour, Daphnis. Est-il possible de rectifier une coquille dans le titre "12 Nouvelles Étude Artistiques, Op.107 (Godard, Benjamin)". Il faudrait ajouter un "s" à "Étude" : "12 Nouvelles Études" Artistiques, Op.107 (Godard, Benjamin)". Je ne sais pas comment faire cette modification moi-même. Merci d'avance.--Jean-Séb 20:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Another modification would be welcome: could we have "Fragment poétiques, Op.13" instead of "Fragment poétique". I want to upload the complete three pieces that form the op.13. The one, labelled Fragment poétique, is indeed No.3 of Op.13. --Jean-Séb 20:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Again me, this time my fault. I've just uploaded Gavotte No1 by Godard under that title. And I 've realized only now that Op.16, as mentioned in the list of compositions, is "Menuet, Andante, & Gavotte No.1 for Piano ", of which I have only the Gavotte. Can this be corrected?--Jean-Séb 20:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

All done. You can actually correct this yourself; at the top of most pages, you'll see a 'move' button. If you push it, you can specify the title of the new page. Afterwards, to make things a little clearer on the page itself, you can edit it to say, for instance, 'No.3' instead of 'Complete score', since the latter would now mean 'of all pieces', which would not be the case. Thanks for noticing these things, though :-) KGill talk email 20:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Many thanks, KGill, and sorry Daphnis for using your space.--Jean-Séb 20:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem. Glad KGill could help. Daphnis 21:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

New template for first editions

Template:FE...have fun.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 16:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Daphnis 16:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit curious how this would be immediately useful for works that only exist in their first editions? What will this template lend that simple text couldn't indicate? Daphnis 16:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


Hi Daphnis. Sorry to bother you again with a mistake of mine. I uploaded a work by a "new" composer, Cesare Galeotti, a pupil of Franck. Unfortunately, I mispelt him Galeoti instead of Galeotti. I don't know how we can correct this.--Jean-Séb 16:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Just delete him, and re-add him with the correct name. Daphnis 17:10, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't know how to delete, if even I am authorized to. Can you delete it for me. I will re-add with the correct name. Sorry.--Jean-Séb 17:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

See here: Impromptu,_Op.106 (Galeotti, Cesare). You'll need to add the rest of the details to the work page I re-created. Daphnis 17:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.--Jean-Séb 17:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Suites vs Larger Works

Hi Daphnis. Having the suites and the larger works can cause an awful lot of confusion, particularly in cases where the extracts from the suites are not the same as the corresponding extracts from the larger work (e.g. the Dance of the Sugar-Plum Fairy from The Nutcracker and the extracts in suites from Carmen). In many cases the numbers in the suite have different titles from those in the larger work, and the information given concerning instrumentation, first publication, and (of course) the section listings, is different.

After raising this issue with the IMSLP 'elders' in 2008, we agreed that the suites should be treated as separate works and given their own pages. This also turned out to be very convenient when adding all the orchestral parts from the OM project, where having two sets of parts on the same page with different contents would have been completely unmanageable, not to say perplexing for any prospective performers.

While I can understand that looking at the Le tombeau example by itself you might wonder about the rationale for this decision, the fact is that if we went back to all suites on the same pages as their larger works, then the result would be chaos in almost all cases, and I would strongly oppose reverting to the old system — P.davydov 10:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Davydov, yes, I do understand this logic and it is a compelling reason to separate these into separate pages. It's not a major point of frustration with me, but I thought I may bring my point up since I saw the pages. However, I would still submit that the Le tombeau page either be adjusted with a more accurate subtitle (orchestration) or merged back into a single page for the facts I listed on your talk page (btw, feel free to respond there as I'm watching it). Daphnis 15:46, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

In the case of Le tombeau, the two versions have different scoring and numbers of movements, as well as a different number in Marnat's thematic catalogue, so there are good reasons to keep them on separate pages. The reference sources are contradictory as to whether the orchestral version was always intended to be a ballet (or if it became one after the fact), but I'd be wary of substituting the term "orchestral version", in case it misleads people into thinking it's a straightforward orchestration of the piano score. If you feel more clarification is needed, then how about expanding on the information given under "Version History" for each work instead? — P.davydov 17:43, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The different scoring is merely an orchestration, and orchestrations don't get separate pages, even if a couple movements were dropped. I don't really find any contradiction of sources regarding the orchestral version. The pages I cited from Orenstein, (widely regarded as the foremost authority on Ravel) make it very clear that the ballet was after the fact. In addition, you'll never see this work billed anywhere as a "ballet", and I've played this work myself no less than a dozen times. The same situation occurred with his Valses nobles et sentimentales which was later turned into a ballet entitled Adélaïde, ou le langage des fleurs in 1912 after the orchestration (with ballet premiering before "orchestral" version). Daphnis 17:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually there are precedents for placing orchestral and piano versions on different pages (e.g. many of Liszt's works), and attempting to merge the two versions of Le tombeau causes quite a few headaches (reminding me why they had to be split in the first place). So I've redesignated them as "(piano)" and "(orchestra)", instead of "(suite)" and "(ballet)" respectively. I really think we need to keep the two versions separate, but I hope this will address your concerns over the "ballet" label — P.davydov 18:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for humoring me. I'm fine with these two divisions, I just want to make sure that their labels are clear to users rather than introduce more confusion. I admit that sometimes I've been confused which of these segregated works I was after if I didn't know their compositional genesis etc. Daphnis 19:07, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Les Troyens...again

I hold in my hands Kalmus Miniature scores Nos.515 and 516 (I'm in a music library). They are, respectively (Worldcat):

  1. The Conquest of Troy, Opera in Three Acts. Reprint of: Leipzig: Breitkopf, etc. 1906. [1]
  2. The Trojans at Carthage, Opera in Four Acts. I can't find a good version on Worldcat (which is strange given that the library from whose collection they are is listed on Worldcat), but I can tell that this is clearly a reprint of the Choudens 1863.

Problem: I have no scanner. Let's get to work tracking these down. I'm double-posting on Carolus's page for this reason.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 20:40, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure I can track them down, but I'm skeptical how the finished product will come out. Since these are miniatures of a large full score, are they (the copies you've seen) even legible? Would it be worth it? Daphnis 21:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

They're definitely 600+dpi scanning scores, but legible. Carolus thinks that he can find them through interlibrary loan (see his talk), so this might work. And besides, Berlioz is always worth it, even if it takes us 2400 dpi ;)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 21:09, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Correction: Even if it takes ME 2400dpi :) Daphnis 21:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

True...but still worth it, no? ;)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 21:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course it is. I hope Carolus can come through on those loans, otherwise I'm not sure when I'll have the time...certainly wouldn't be until sometime next year. Daphnis 21:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Update: A nice package arrived today. In it are Kalmus Nos.515 and 516. They are quite small, but the printing is clean. 600 dpi should be able to give us a reasonably decent scan of them. These will be dismembered for scanning, which will make the images that much better. Carolus 04:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Their sacrifice will be noted and appreciated. Daphnis 05:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Noces de Promethée

Huge file...why?-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 04:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

600dpi from full-sized conductor's score. Daphnis 04:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

OK.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 04:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

des pas dans l'allee, Camille Saint-Saëns

hello Daphnis,

i saw that you recently uploaded the number two of opus 141 by Camille Saint-Saëns...thank you for that. will you be uploading no. 1 (des pas dans l'allée) as well? i'd really appreciate that..

greetings from France Pieter

Hi. As I recall, and my memory may be hazy due to the seemingly countless hundreds of Saint-Saëns pieces I've gathered up, I couldn't find the first number anywhere, and I believe the second wasn't easy to find either. I'll take another look and see if this is still the case. Daphnis 21:01, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

hello, so i was wondering if you found it yet, otherwise i'll order it online and send you a scan for your collection, oki?


Hi, Pieter. I don't have it as of yet, but the request is out there and I'm hopeful I'll get my hands on it at last. However, if you do decide to purchase it, a scan in black and white at 600dpi would be a most welcome addition to the site. Thanks. Daphnis 13:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Pieter, I just received word that the score in question was shipped to me yesterday, so I should hopefully have it in my hands at either the end of this week or the beginning of next. Daphnis 20:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Pieter, I've just posted the "Des pas dans l'allée" from Op. 141. Daphnis 05:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Dukas: Fanfare pour précéder La Péri

Despite the 1927 claim by Durand, it appears this may have been actually issued in 1912. Take a look at the cover of the following item - Saint-Saëns: Prologue - taken from a periodical issued in late 1912. If we can find a copy of the supplement with the work actually there, the 1927 claim is blown out of the water altogether. Something to add to your library searching (mine too, of course) Carolus 07:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

That issue from the periodical by Lafitte included only the transcription of Dukas' Fanfare for piano 2 hands by Inghelbrecht (1880-1965), which was simultaneously issued by Durand that same year (plate 8527), which I own, and which I've resisted uploading because of the obvious incarceration it would face if done so. Curiously, however, and somewhat unrelated, Grove makes no mention of the Saint-Saëns Prologue recently uploaded. Daphnis 14:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if that "Prologue" was part of a later work.

It's possible, although that later work would most likely need to be a vocal or dramatic work as I'm quite certain the catalog I used to re-vamp the Saint-Saëns project (Ratner) was only Volume 1 of 3 and it made no mention of this. I think I may email the author about this one and see what she thinks. Daphnis 14:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, Ratner is only vol. 1, and unfortunately Vol. 2 which will cover the dramatic music has yet to come out .Seeing how it's 1912 (and not 1909 as I mistakenly thought a few minutes ago), The Promised Land seems to be the best guess (though I assume that's in English, given the title), or On Ne Badine Pas Avec L'Amour (which we don't even have listed in the works list here). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 00:48, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for getting this cleared up! ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:31, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Martinu: Piano Concerto 'Incantation'

Looks like an eccentric aspect of Canada's law comes into play here. (I had to read up on this because of some posthumous issues posted recently by Hobbypianist.) Since it was first published in 1970, Martinu's term had not yet expired in Canada, or in the country of origin. Therefore, the term is 50 years from publication. However, if a 1970 first publication outside Canada or a NAFTA country was the work of a composer dead over 50 years, a couple of other factors come into play (as far as Canadian status is concerned): a) If the work was performed or recorded - the date of first publication is counted as being the date of first performance or recording (within the composer's lifetime, in other words), or b) it could be protected in Canada only as long as in the country of origin (25 years maximum in the EU under Editio Princeps). Annoying as it is, I think we'll have to take this down, unfortunately. Carolus 08:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, well that is unfortunate because it's one of his best works and most interesting piano concerto. I had no idea it was first published in 1970, just that, when combing through the Kalmus catalog for his works, I saw it and decided to snag it. Then I suppose it also isn't worth scanning the Rhapsody-Concerto for viola and orchestra if it was first published by Bärenreiter/Supraphon in 1978 (BA 4316) (piano reduction published 1972), is it? Maybe we should check on the official first publication date since Grove doesn't give one and I'm only assuming these Czech-state issues were the first. They could have been issued earlier in the country of origin in the Czech language I suppose, and they wouldn't necessarily show up in a WorldCat search if the English title which I used wasn't also referenced. Daphnis 14:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW, Carolus, if you're watching, will you take a look at the latter Glière string quartets first published by Muzyka and tell me if they're actually public domain in the US? As far as that's concerned, how would this situation differ from the also uploaded Incantations by Martinu where both were published after 1923 and both issued by state-run publishers. Thanks. Daphnis 06:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll check the NIE list for the Gliere. Schirmer filed NIEs for just about everything that was controlled by VAAP (the copyright agency of the USSR). Since Kalmus is still selling Incantation, it means that Supraphon or Bärenreiter dropped the ball (typical for them) failed to file an NIE before January 1998. If we really don't know the first publication date, I suppose we can mark it "C" and see if anyone barks (unlikely). Carolus 06:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC) UPDATE: As I expected, both 3rd and 4th quartets restored. Here's the whole Gliere list

Is it worth my time to scan and upload the rest of the Martinu/Kalmus catalog, or at least the Rhapsody-Concerto for viola and orchestra? Also, what do you know about Murdoch, Murdoch & Co. of London insofar as their renewals for US copyright in the middle 1920's? Were they fairly diligent? I'd like to see if the first symphony of 1923 could have been overlooked despite Kalmus not catching it. Daphnis 04:54, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

There's another wrinkle in Canada's law with respect to posthumous publication. It would appear that for the purpose of determining the start of the copyright term, Canada regards performance and recording as being equivalent to publication. In other words, since we know that Incantation was both performed and recorded in the composer's lifetime, the clock started running when the composer died, which means it is free in Canada. At least that is my reading of the relevant sections of Canada's statute. I am now planning on leaving this up and tagging with a "C". You can go ahead and add anything else of his in the Kalmus catalog (check the online DB which is completely up-to-date). Murdoch was absorbed by Chappell in the 1940s, so everything issued 1923 onward was renewed, as far as I can tell. (Note the lack of Bax titles in Kalmus.) We just passed 50K, BTW. Congratulations. Carolus 05:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks. Daphnis 05:16, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Guillaume Tell full score question

Hello, Daphis! Thank you for ouverture to Guillaume Tell and all other works (especially for Verdi)! I'm strongly interested in orchestra score of complete opera, is it possible to post it here, or you have only part of it in your disposal? --OperaStage 13:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It is very possible to post here, however I do not have the full score to this opera and don't plan on scanning it. I will, however, be scanning and submitting Barber of Seville at some point in the future. Daphnis 14:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a pity since I'm looking for Tell, although Barbiere is a wonderful work.

Could you tell me a good way of scanning?

Hello.I'm very sorry for sudden request.I read that you are an expert of scanning.I'd like to ask you some things.

I work at a wind band as a librarian and I have to scan score into a PDF and hand it to members. There is a problem with scanning, so I would like to get some advise from you.

I scan like these:

  1. Scan score with a normal Canon scanner.
  2. Adjust brightness and contrast using "Microsoft Office Picture Manager".
  3. Make all scanned jpeg files into one PDF by "Adobe Acrobat 6.0".

The problem is that the file size of the PDF is too large. For example, the PDF of 40-50 pages that I made by this way is 60MBytes, while scores on IMSLP is only 1~5 MB (Sometimes 15~ MB) even if it contains more than 100 pages. So, I tried to decrease the file size by reducing jpeg file (2000*1500 pixels to 1000*750) but this caused a bad quality of PDF. It's not clear.

IMSLP scores seem to be clear and have very small file size.Maybe it's partly because it's a black-and-white colored picture. I don't know software to make picture into black-and-white color.

Please point out what is bad in my method and give some advice if you kindly will. --Akira 14:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

What type of hardware are you using? Since you're a librarian, are you using a photocopy machine, like an industrial copier (Ricoh, Canon, Xerox, etc.), or a personal, small, flatbed scanner? Regardless of what you use (if you do have access to such a photocopier, I'd recommend using it as the imaging sensors are of much higher quality than home scanners), the basics of scanning music are as follows:

  1. Scan in black-and-white (a.k.a. 1-bit, monochrome, or line art) at 300dpi minimum, 600dpi maximum.
  2. Scan to individual TIFF files (not multi-page TIFF, or JPEG) using CCITT Fax 4 compression if given the option. Scanning a 9.4 x 12.5 inches (42.32 MPixels) score @ 600dpi using said compression yields a file size of only 309KB, which will be further reduced in the PDF container.
  3. Make sure the threshold levels for b & w are adjusted to not catch any artifacts on the page, but only "page data", ie. printing only. Some industrial copiers refer to this setting as "image density" while most home scanners refer to this as "threshold".
  4. Set a scan area up that captures only the desired page size. Most "auto scan" or "auto detect page size" features are worthless for our purposes, so if necessary, get a tape measure or ruler and input the dimensions of the page into your scanner, or if using a home scanner, use a preview function to set a bounding box around the area you wish to scan, and save it in a profile (most scanning software supports this).
  5. Edit, if necessary or desired, the scans in an image editor like Photoshop or Gimp (free) to remove unwanted markings (residual pencil/pen markings, owner stamps, etc.) and remove skew.
  6. Compile all finished images in a PDF using the maximum level of PDF compatibility your software supports. If using Acrobat Pro, use JBIG2 lossy compression (default for Acrobat 9).

I hope this helps. Daphnis 17:04, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I use Canon's home scaner MP950.I didn't come to an idea that use TIFF file.
I will try it. Thank you very much.--Akira 08:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Ropartz & Magnard full symphonies

Hello Daphnis. After being off for a while, I find the full symphonies of Magnard and Ropartz, plus Yolande, Bérénice by Magnard and the Cello Rhapsodie and Pêcheur d'Islande by Ropartz... I am simply amazed ! Taking the risk of being highly lacking of originality, I just send you another huge thank you ! --Matthieu 09:57, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Glad to finally fill these gaps. There is still much Ropartz to add (I've basically gone as far as I can with Magnard), but some of the orchestral works are impossible to find, so I have to wait and make a few special requests in the future for those still missing. Daphnis 23:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The Cunning Little Vixen

Could you explain this CR tag? Thanks-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The edits are not sufficient enough to warrant a separate copyright (the original date was also 1924), we don't really consider a translation into another language sufficient either, and since it was first published in 1924, it's still protected in the US. Daphnis 02:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I meant that the US tag is 2024....not 2020...?-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Oops. Corrected. Thanks for double-checking! Daphnis 02:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

:)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Villa-Lobos publication dates

You may be interested in my recent update to this page. KGill talk email 01:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Very nice work. Please keep it up! This is a great addition to the Villa-Lobos page and IMSLP in general. Daphnis 02:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I was worried about the accuracy of a few of the dates since they directly contradict your research - for instance, there seems to be evidence that Choros No.6 was first published in 1955 rather than 1987 (which may have been a reissue). I guess the problem is that I don't have access to any of the publishers' catalogs, only WorldCat (still a great resource, but not quite as definite). Anyway, after making some more progress on the tagging project, I will return occasionally to typing up information. Thanks again, and please feel free to make corrections to the page if you spot any errors :-) KGill talk email 02:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Well actually, some of the dates I gave are more like educated high probabilities, especially since I highly doubt Eschig's claim that the same piece with plate numbers off by one were issued 30 years apart. It's much more likely that they were negligent, as usual, in including the original publication date for the score and instead claim the reprint as the publication date to scare off any would-be hijackers. Daphnis 02:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

Concertino for Viola, BI 328, 546 (Rolla, Alessandro)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 14:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Clean. Daphnis 15:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


Thank you very much Daphnis for your changes.


Strauss oboe concerto

Dear Daphnis,

I've lost my oboe part for the Strauss concerto and live in South Africa. Do you know where I can get / download one?


MAgdalizeEmail me

Litolff VS for Cellini

Hi Daphnis,

many thanks for this upload – which I've amended slightly, in that it was the composer Peter Cornelius that provided the German translation, not the other Peter von Cornelius. Interestingly the VS has German as the primary language, and French as the secondary, so I'm not sure whether that ordering should be listed with the new "Language" tag for files. Regards, Philip

Ok, thanks for that. Whatever you need to do with Berlioz go right ahead :) Daphnis 16:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Debussy, Préludes

Hi Daphnis. A very naive question: how is it possible that the last uploaded version of the Préludes (#59704 and #59705) are really just a reprint of Paris: Durand & Cie., 1910, plate D. & F. 7687 (#00509). Just have a look at the first page, even the number of bars is different.

You're right. It sure doesn't seem to be a reprint of the first edition. It was possible this was reprinted from a later engraving by Durand, but knowing Schirmer it's far more likely this is a re-engraving by them entirely. If this is actually a re-engraving, they sure went to a lot of trouble to imitate the Durand style. Daphnis 14:30, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, if this is an imitation they can be proud of it. But your theory of a later engraving by Durand seems more convincing: the italic text font (e.g. "doux mais en dehors") is almost a signature. --Matthieu 14:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

New fields

Remember the "|Reprint=" field...thanks-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 15:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I keep forgetting about that. Can we please integrate this into the file upload dialogue box? Daphnis 17:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Feld says that when he has time...-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 01:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)