User talk:Matesic

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Dear Matesic, Are you Steve Jones or do you have his permission to post his arrangement of Ravel's Menuet Antique here? Please respond in 24 hours or less as we delete unauthorized arrangements in that period. Thanks, Carolus 17:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC) (IMSLP Copyright Admin)

Hi Carolus - absolutely, all my own work!

Thanks! Carolus 03:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear Matesic, You might wish to consider using either the 'non-commercial' or 'share alike' version of the Creative Commons license as we've had some reports of new arrangements (like yours) being copied and sold on Ebay by the folks who are always selling DVDs of 'the world's greatest mega-collection of sheet music', etc. At least if you employ one of the above versions, you can make a complaint to Ebay in the event you notice one of the sellers offering your arrangements for sale. Best Wishes, Carolus 20:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


Quartet recordings

To you and your quartet (or was it multi-channeled, one person playing several tracks at different times? However it was done and to whoever besides you was involved, as well as to you)- excellent work (based on the Macfarren recordings I've heard so far.) Thanks so much for them and for uploading them!! Eric 06:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Eric - Thank you, most encouraging! I do hope a real quartet will take up these pieces (the recordings are indeed multitracked, and the "cello" is a viola in digital disguise). Quartet No 4, incidentally, seems to be lost, so what you see is Macfarren's whole surviving oeuvre in this medium. Best Wishes, Steve aka Matesic


On a guess, Merton Music was only willing to put some of their scores on their FTP server for general free distribution (which are the ones we can use here if I understand what happened) - plus of course permissions issues etc. (they may have limited licenses to publish some things that do not extend to wider distribution. Some composers they publish died too recently - I noticed we were allowed to upload a work by one of those composers anyway, but that was because Merton was given general permission and able to transfer it to us - etc. If I understand, etc. By the way, you left the comment on his user page- may want to transfer it to his talk page...) Eric 19:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ellerton op. 61 no.1 ; thoughts etc

Was listening to this today. Odd scherzo- practically every appearance of being in F major, if you don't count the D minor coda. Very good piece in all. I'm surprised I was just interested in him as a way of filling in a gap in a slightly illegitimate list in Wikipedia (this one) but I'm glad to have previously underrated him, if I make sense... hope to hear more. Thanks! Going to listen to the Bishop and Castillon soon. (To pick up on that thread, I guess I'm - not surprised but surprised too, that Beethoven's late works had so little influence in most ways, though I can name some obvious ways in which they did - the recitative in the A minor quartet influencing Mendelssohn's opus 13 (of course) but also, much later, Stenhammar's 4th quartet in the same key too (which also shows signs of the composer's having listened closely to Beethoven's opus 74 and I think others too... while his 3rd quartet concludes with a fantasy and fugue that makes some nods to the fugue that opens Beethoven's opus 131, while opening with a movement that has some of the atmosphere(?) of Beethoven's opus 135... ... anyway... but it does seem that in a century where most of the symphonic work showed lots of formal experiment, and some of the piano-and-chamber-work too (e.g. Volkmann's 2nd piano trio in one movement, premiered I think with Liszt at the piano; and of course Liszt's own piano sonata), that so much of the chamber music for strings, esp string quartets, should formally be - for the most part - relatively respectful. (Not boring in content, mind- I would not say that of the best of it- Brahms' 3 string quartets are not boring for sticking to 4 movements, his other string chamber music either - just in some senses respectful. Though even then with the Brahms maybe respectful is the wrong word since in other formal senses it's not quite apt... :) ) It seems a good point or at least worth looking into. Eric 06:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Re: Stanford quartets

Re Wood, have you heard his quartet in A minor (from the ASV CD, performed by the Lindsays "a recreation of the historic concert", 1993, also contains a premiere of Tippett's 5th quartet, other works)? Only quartet of his I think is recorded. Anyhow, I'm on Long Island in New York right now, borrowing a backup computer of one of my parents- very slow and 5 years old :) (...ok, in my day- my first computer I mean, they lasted 9 years, but that one didn't have an internet connection or a hard drive at all ... anyway.) - haven't heard the Stanford 3 yet but looking forward to it. (Someone posted a notice of it to so the word is out, as with the MacFarren. Wasn't me, actually, though I did second. I do think there may be a technical problem with the MacFarren 6 finale audiofile- I'm not positive :) ) As to the 2nd movement of Stanford's 3rd quartet - other Brahms works too, maybe, (and maybe Mendelssohn's quieter quartet intermezzi?... I don't know...) but I agree. I'd forgotten the others were unpublished - looking very much forward to, of course, this has been wonderful discovery! Best and thanks!! Eric 13:28, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

BTW I see Porte here does speak of the 3rd quartet favorably though briefly - I will have to go to the local library and see what their copy of Cobbett actually says though, I'm intrigued... :) Eric 16:45, 25 November 2010 (UTC) (and I didn't know there was a second piano quartet (op133). but then people seemed to vacillate about the 2nd violin concerto- only in manuscript of violin/piano score? is there even an orchestral score at all?... at present, someone should prepare an edition... - also wasn't aware of the 3rd piano concerto, cello concerto, etc. So goes :) are quartets 4, 6, 7 the unpublished ones - also a no.8??) Eric 16:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I might save you a trip by quoting Cobbett "The later string quartets," (after 1 & 2 - he counts 6 altogether but I'm sure there are more) "only 2 of which appear to be published, are decidedly less attractive. Number 3... suffers from a paucity of themes which arrest attention. The technique is unimpeachable, but the melodic invention shows a falling off from the earlier quartets, which, if not strikingly original, had certainly an easy grace and fresh good humour to commend them". I strongly suspect he never heard it, which in the case of other composers' works (e.g.Macfarren's) never stopped him giving an adverse opinion! I

Elgar: 11 Vesper Voluntaries, Op.14

Works beautifully for string orchestra! Great work. Carolus 00:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Sokolov quartet 3

As a rule I think 19th century Russians (especially Tchaik!) might have been better off not attempting fugatos, but I reckon Sokolov got his just right, building up the tension before the condensed recap. I gather Shostakovitch dedicated his Op3 Theme and Variations to him, possibly after he died? Enjoying the Steinberg, which is a thing apart and quite a challenge - his scherzo makes me almost think of Prokofiev but he discovered Tristan big-time for the andante. It gets a good mention in Cobbett (from Calvocoressi - "stands high in the repertory of Russian chamber music"), but poor Sokolov is packed off with "not very distinguished or individual". Unlike the Russians it looks like most of the obscure German romantics are now getting some exposure, so I'm not so inclined to go there, but the Draeseke does look interesting. Fuchs's second Terzetto was fun up to the finale, but with trios there really is nowhere to hide - in bigger groups have you noticed how even some of the top players manage to discreetly "disappear" for a few beats? I also tried and enjoyed Gernsheim's 3rd a while back (very Brahmsy), so maybe I should finish it off. I do appreciate all the suggestions, even if only ever get round to playing a few of them. How to choose from all that fascinating stuff? Best, Steve.

Responding to this from awhile ago as I seem to recall you may have requested some names from Hungary, Czech/Slovakia, or Russia- though on the tip of the proverbial tongue is a German one that's quite obscure that despite the above (which is fairly accurate) ... ... hrm. As to Hungary, the String Quartet in E minor (Nováček, Ottokar) (ca.1891) looks neat (and the 1898-ish slightly later String Quartet, Op.10 (Nováček, Ottokar) also. With op.13 in C major also on the site he gets a bit strange it seems (can't identify the influence offhand, but those opening bars are a departure...)- not that I mind. Very little of his has been recorded, I think- a showpiece or two. Actually, op.13 looks very interesting... Of that laundry list of quartets I sent your way back 10 December, though, the one that most intrigued me (fwiw!!), I'm pretty sure, was the Perinello :) Cheers and all best. Listened to the Miles sextet once through on my iPod - not entirely sure myself which movements are too long (the second and fourth?) but found them inventive. And belated - and many - thanks for telling me how to 'clean' those logo-tagged image files by cropping, speaking of the Miles sextet. Eric 01:10, 9 January 2011 (UTC):

You're right, it was 2 and 4 that I lost some patience with - so many notes in the scherzo and the march rhythm of the finale got very relentless played 6 times over. Fortunately the notes there are so easy it was only the first violin that needed going over a second time. It looks like Percy's is the only string sextet written/published by a Britisher (no octets?), and I can only think of 3 string quintets - Stanford's and Ethyl Smyth's have of course been commercially recorded which leaves my friend JLE! It's a hard piece (for me) to bring off, but the long (15 minute) first movement I find definitely impressive so I guess that's another recording I ought to brush up. Yes, there must surely be some good unsung Hungarians, and I'll add Novacek to the list. I previously tried Koessler's second, thinking that the man who taught Bartok and Kodaly must know a thing or two, but it didn't do much for me. Cheers, Steve

Four string quintets (Romantic era; pre-Bax who wrote two) no, with two by Stanford (the C minor second, op.86 may only be in manuscript assuming it hasn't been lost though- hope not, I'm- again - curious.) The piano quintet was a much more popular medium, I gather. Dutton (I think) plans to record all of Tovey's chamber music.
String Quintet, Op.99 (Mascia, Giuseppe) - here's an Italian quintet in manuscript that's been lying around here for a bit- only noticed it yesterday when the recent changes feed picked an edit to it up (and I edited the edit - from F to F major to B-flat major, on checking the parts.) Composer dates 1808-1870; have very, very little information about him at all. (Ah, I see we now have the Ellerton quintet thanks to the Merton project. I'm not sure if I downloaded it- will do so.) Yes, I do like pieces whose trios revert to the old style :) I think Stenhammar's 2nd symphony does that (from sound- will have to check; I should listen with the score sometime soon, it's a favorite of mine, I have two recordings and have heard at least one other (Westerberg's I think, and/or Tor Mann's; and perhaps Sundqvist's on Naxos also)). (Do you know the technique of 3 or 4 tildes ~ to sign posts? Can be quite useful though I've been on Wikis for ages and keep forgetting in a hurry Eric 15:27, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
String quintets- E major by Parry, too, I think, makes five? Still, not so many. Eric 20:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC):
Much-belated response as I often take such statements as challenges *g* - string sextets by Britishers- besides the Bridge - does Goossens (1926) (Phantasy-sextet, I think) count as a Britisher or an Australian in this connection? Both are 20th-century though then again the Miles is 1920 also :) (also, Holbrooke's op43 of 1902, recorded on Marco Polo?) Eric 10:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC):

Ah well, I have to bow... Goossens, I read, was actually born in France to a Belgian family. I don't think Australia has any claim over him - in fact I believe they refused him entry on discovering some dodgy material in his suitcase. The sextet could be interesting with another variety of instrumentation - 3 violins, 1 viola, 2 cellos. I've got miniature scores of his second string quartet and also Two Sketches, but they look fiendish. Cheers, Matesic 11:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I assumed it was by his son, Eugene Aynsley Goossens, born in London in 1893 (died 1962), who lived in Australia from 1947 to 1956 (now that I check Wikipedia)- and I believe it is he, not his father, who wrote the music you have, especially the 2 Sketches (which are indeed attributed to him at IMSLP) but I'm not positive. I don't doubt all three Eugene Goossens- pere, fils and grandson (the latter being 1893-1962) - composed, though, and correct composer attribution is often a mess and another mess and yet another. And for dodgy material one can't beat at least the allegations surrounding grandson's life... (Looking forward to hearing the Kopylov - that was fast! :) ) Eric 16:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


Listened to Steinberg quartet 1 - well, 1.8 times so far. Really, really good piece and performance. The end of the slow movement catches me up, incidentally. Are you familiar with Nikolai Y. Myaskovsky's 2nd symphony (C minor, around 1910-11, op.11)? The ending of its A minor second movement (of three) (Molto sostenuto. Adagio serioso, ma espressivo) basically is like this - a connecting passage (ending with a pause, so not strictly attacca) into the finale that quotes its main theme several times, preceded however by a calm coda in A major. The end of that coda sounds (really very nearly?..., I think- and of course, different instrumentation and key...) exactly?... (not sure... it's very close at least?) like the end of the slow movement of the Steinberg. I'd think it more a coincidence except Myaskovsky dedicated his 11th symphony to Steinberg and arranged Steinberg's 3rd symphony for piano 4 hands (I think) (and his "Prinses Marlene" for 2 pianos 8 hands) (see Myaskovsky opus list, so it's pretty clear Myaskovsky knew of Steinberg and his music, at least (well, as of 1926 if not necessarily as early as 1910!)... they may have been friends; I don't know. Mildly interesting maybe. (Not thinking plagiarism, though, and it's a brief enough though striking passage anyway. Just kept feeling the jagged opening of the symphony finale was going to follow, not the dancing and also quite good finale that did. Anyhow, irrelevant. Carry on :) ) Eric 14:56, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Out of curiosity have you had a look at String Quartet No.1, Op.21 (Stephens, Charles Edward)? (composed ca 1879, pub. 1881)? Not nec. high priority but may be worth a glance, did win a Trinity College award apparently. Eric 05:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC): Yes I did - very boring, almost galant in style and no part-writing at all! I believe Stephens was mainly an organist and the award was probably just some kind of acknowledgement of his eminence. A couple of earlier prize-winners (Society of British Musicians) were Perry and Prout who were also anxious not to offend anybody by doing anything new. At least Hirschbach was trying to stretch the envelope, but judging from his 13th quartet unfortunately he just lacked any musical competence. Schumann (quoted in Cobbett) hinted as much "the composer would fain be styled a poet...he was in his youth a student of medicine...accounts for the defective musical culture which is here and there apparent in his music". The direct association of instrumental music with poetry seems to have been a short-lived fad in the 1840's or 50's. Heller and Ernst did it rather well I think in their "Pensees Fugitives" for piano and violin, some of which I got to play with a real pianist a few months back. Another dud I tried this week was Dimitrescu's 4th quartet (early Beethoven pastiche) but I'm currently up to my neck in something bigger and better! Cheers, Steve:

Afraid I'm not quite up to speed with Myaskovsky with just one symphony and the cello concerto to base my prejudices on. I thought it was interesting that Neeme Jarvi used his DG contract to record Myaskovky's 6th as well as wanting to do all 5 of Steinberg's! The second is very impressive although doesn't leave you humming the tunes.

intriguing :)! Eric 09:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


I don't know offhand of any other recordings of anything of his- seeing his name attached to uploads here was my first encounter with. More later and thank you- Eric 19:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'll be (something something) . Piano duo music by Wilm (not confused with Jan W. Wilms, a composer who I have heard :), unlike von Wilm so far, though of course with online radio and everything that can change so quickly. Still, Radiowave Tuner's search feature mentions a few works by Wilms- symphonies and movements from- and nothing by Wilm in the next week... ) on a 2003 CD - here, a disc devoted to his work. Also mentions a few other recordings containing a work or two of von Wilm's, some of them duplications - LPs and their CD versions, for instance... (played by Menuhin and Zabaleta here (1989 LP), an interesting-looking "Salonhorn" horn and piano CD here (Carl Reissiger, Leone Sinigaglia, and Wilm do not turn up all that often at all separately, leave alone together :) ). The recording on the 1989 LP is of a rather late work of his (a violin/harp duo op.156- op.150 is also from his last year I think. (Though I see his op.nos. go up at least to 217 and that for a work published not in 1911 but in 1905. Hrm. Rethinking that... :) Opus numbers are often such a mess - ask Dvorak- or many others who make his case seem so simple... ). Anyhow. Just thought I'd correct my misapprehension. Will check again to see if the nonet is now unblocked, and will download the files if so. Looking forward to hearing. Thanks much! Eric 20:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

skimming the RAM catalog...

Did you say whether or not you've had a look at a string quartet in manuscript by Alexander Mackenzie that's there? Harvey Lohr is an intriguing name (name, anyway) but I suppose he's non-PD-EU strictly-speaking :). You did mention Alice Mary Smith- is that -22- quartets?... Eric 00:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC) (I've heard of Potter - not sure if I've heard anything by him yet but have skimmed, I think, one of his scores, hope to hear at least one of those symphonies that's been recorded, and a string quartet should you upload one of course - but his name has often crossed my ears so to speak. Is Charles Lucas another of the ones that was worth avoiding? :) Haven't heard of him myself. Anyhow. Cheers! ) Eric 00:40, 22 December 2010 (UTC):

The RAM have sent copies of the Potter and Lucas mss so now it's down to work. Potter has some strong advocates for his symphonies but I've only ever heard snippets. The quartet was written about the same time, i.e. 1830's. I wonder how many other people could claim to have met both Beethoven and Wagner? Lucas was another principal of the RAM, 1859-1866. I see from the RAM material that his quartet was played in Birmingham (from the ms) as late as the 1880's, but then so was one of Prout's so that's no guarantee of quality! My understanding of the RAM catalogue is that there are 3 Alice Smith quartets, but I'm told they haven't been digitized yet so will cost me more of I want copies - surprised the feminists haven't been there yet! I hadn't spotted the Mackenzie which could certainly be worth a look. Re recent noises from the bedroom, I found Sinigaglia's D major quartet a bit turgid, but the Op8 Scherzo was fun. Took me ages to get to the end of Krein's 15-minute Quatuor-poeme, and the cellist didn't quite make it - maybe another day. All the best, Steve

hrm, should have made my comment down here actually. Is the RAM nowhere near close enough to travel and photocopy or do things not work like that- that's how I used to do things at Cornell, though on the other, New York Public Library at Lincoln Center Research Collections (very fine collections, not all of them catalogued online by any means) had much much stricter rules about photocopying if I remember (regardless, I think, of the copyright status of the work being photocopied- about 10% of the pages at most). BTW Rebecca Hilferich Clarke's teacher (and would-be paramour? something?... ... - not a smart fellow, this guy- but it's a story. Also friend of Lionel Tertis.) Percy Hilder Miles wrote a couple of things - a string sextet for an unusual combination from 1920, near his year of death, that's at google books (if it's no longer there, I downloaded it and can send it you if you like; I didn't upload it here because I really have no clue how to remove the google imprint. sigh) and a rather earlier (1903?) set of fantasy pieces for string quartet. Can't guarantee the interest of either but doubt either has been recorded. Eric 08:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC):


Just downloaded your rendition of the Fantasy pieces - will listen soon. Very interested in the sextet of course. Hope someone will upload the score of his youthful piano trio. Don't know of too many other works by him (though he's at least mentioned in other connections in articles as early as 1896- sometimes as a violinist and MacFarren (Walter? George?? don't know the details) Scholar in the Musical Times, indeed the piano trio is mentioned in part because he performed the violin part in it in an article there around 1896?.) (also mentioned in a 1903 Musical Times as a former Mendelssohn Scholar. I suppose I have material for a possible Wikipedia stub, anyway... *g*) Ah, there's also (plus some shorter works, plus perhaps other things) an andante and allegro for piano quintet, composed by 1899, for which he received a composition award (silver medal). (Musical News, volume 15, page 107.) Eric 23:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

A list of other Google-available scores that -may- be usable (I don't know if this is resource is very accessible in the UK actually, I've heard some suggestions that some items that should be perfectly PD-EU in Google/HathiTrust are not from British friends, but here is the link...) - well, search for quartet or quintet at HathiTrust. Can't save the whole PDF at once as Google Books once allowed- only the images page by page and the interface is a pain, can't move to quickly or it thinks you're a bot apparently... - but if something interests you considerably, I can save the work and send the PDF or movement PDFs, for performance and/or Google-cleaning. Have found a few things myself but most of the things on my list are definitely non-PD-EU (like David Stanley Smith's quartet- he died in 1949) or have been recorded (like Børresen's op.20). Eric 15:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC):

Can't get anywhere with Hathitrust - over here everything seems to be "Limited (search-only"). Interesting, though, that one of the first quartets to come up was a set by Pierre Vachon, one of which I played with a real group on Monday. The editor was my music teacher in the 1960's! Percy's sextet is coming along laboriously, but rewardingly. The first two movements are quite complex harmonically speaking (as you might expect from a teacher of harmony) and playing off the score doesn't make it any easier. Haven't managed to discover any more info about him, although there is a reference to a cello concerto that was given at the 1908 proms. ( Cheers, Steve.

I remember that I've seen some of Pierre Vachon's quartets on a CD but I don't think I've heard too much about him (ah, WorldCat says a quartet from opus 1 was on a 1996 Auvidis CD- that sounds about right. And two quartets from other opus #s on an ASV CD the same year). Hrm. Actually, did I suggest Kriens' opus 74? (I was able to save-pagewise and then make PDFs- un-google-cleaned though- of Ewald Straesser's E minor (4th) string quartet. Oh neat, a Miles cello concerto and at the proms? Any mention of the soloist by chance? Enjoyed the Fantasy Pieces! (Ah, link doesn't mention, but I'll check to see if there's a 1908 Musical Times or something online or at Cornell Library.) Eric 02:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC) (another reference - findable though probably only in US or CA on Google Books - to that list is The New music review and Church music review, Volume 7, page 608, from 1908, btw :) )
Odd though, Miles doesn't show up in a search of the (official?) Proms Archive. Here is the 1908 Proms - they say... Eric 02:33, 6 January 2011 (UTC) (if the blogspot was based on the link I provided, it's conceivable the performance was cancelled... that was an announcement of a performance-to-be from before the season had started, I think):

Right you are! David Cox's book The Henry Wood Proms has exactly the same list of novelties for 1908, minus Percy's cello concerto. What a shame! Still, he got to see something of the world as an examiner for the Associated Board ( The Straesser quartet looks very do-able. BTW on Monday we also enjoyed playing through Sokolov's second. Must tackle the first soon.

Enjoy if so. You expressed interest (which I can understand, even if you understandably do not find it a major concern) in being first past the post ;) - String Quartet No.1 (Crémont, Pierre) (parts only ; published 1810s) probably hasn't been performed in quite awhile. Had another look at it, looks interesting if (as I do) one enjoys e.g. Spohr's chamber music. (The shift from G major to D major in the violin I part of the finale probably takes some maneuvering of course.) The movements all look fairly brief. I'll see about getting back to Lilypond and preparing a score of one of these things... Re Google-cleaning, so far as what's needed is cropping off that section of the page rather than filling it with clear page-colored ink, that much I can do and will. Looked through the 1908 Proms and found the Bowen 3rd concerto (which I've heard in two different performances now, Driver's on Dutton and the Hyperion recording also - good piece as is his violin concerto imho...) and the Gardiner symphony (haven't heard yet) - definitely both there - probably all of the others too and I just wasn't looking as hard for them, but the Miles wasn't, no. It probably existed, though... (though it might not now, too...) Eric 10:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
As to late-19th-century British quartets, how's String Quartet in D minor (Ouseley, F.A. Gore) and the C major quartet that Merton has also published by the same? :) if and as time allows- I'm still most interested in hearing the Miles personally and selfishly ;), and you have work to do. But thought I'd ask since I hadn't even realized anything substantial by him was on the site, leave alone string quartets. I think I do adore this site sometimes, yes. :D (Sorry) Eric 13:26, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The Musical Times of 1886 (page 351) mentions a 1831 MS string quartet by Sterndale Bennett given its premiere(??) May? June? 14th of 1886 (ult. is an abbreviation whose use I don't quite get and should.) Not at RAM, but perhaps elsewhere. British Library Collection doesn't list it either. Eric 14:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC) (IMSLP's list of his compositions does mention this - G major quartet.):


downloaded, looking forward to listening to. Should have guessed you were going to upload, but hadn't guessed :) (only 75 bars into the Mascia score. Not even a full page's worth of the parts - clarification- I'm not right now also working on a computer-fair-copy of the parts, though need to do that later of course too. Well, slow but steady.) Eric 17:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC):

I don't know Lilypond, which I guess must have virtues of its own, but one of the huge assets of Printmusic is how easy it is to convert the score into parts. Back to Potter tomorrow, but today giving myself a bit of a headache with H.Gradener's octet...

actually it usually is fairly easy to convert score into parts with Lilypond, I gather (I really haven't done so...) - not as easy as I'd like, but a matter of a couple of tweaks. I'm out of practice! (Though more tweaks if there's things like transposing instruments that are in C in the score and in B in the part, to deal with. The tweaks have to deal with in part, the fact that some things appear only once in the score but in every part. has information, PDF documentation - huge detailed and small overview documents - describing the program, which can be installed on a number of different platforms though it does require some things. Free software with a lot of what that entails, some negative too yes; at least it's ongoing and not stalled-development free software. The Gradener intrigues. Mentioned the Straesser and got an immediate positive response on the forum not yet to the recording but to the choice of the piece from one of the moderators, who has heard a symphony of his. Hopefully a good sign. Listened to it myself a few hours ago and like it a lot. Thanks! Must dash. Eric 22:40, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok, first movement of Mascia score - op.99 - now basically notated except I think for a few editing specifics and checks... will work on the other three, then go back to it (and them). Generoso has uploaded several others of his quintets today also... Eric 23:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC):

Heck, I haven't even started on quintets yet! The parts of Parry's seem to have been produced with a very primitive notation program with notes the size of pennies, about 30 bars to the page and you could read it from the other side of the room. Unfortunately it does clearly state "Copyright 2002", so if SBB ever gets around to tackling it I'll email you a personal link. Gradener writes a couple of tunes in his octet that Brahms wouldn't have been ashamed of - definitely another worthwhile piece, although rather let down by the finale. The best passage is the last variation of III where the second cello is in scordatura, C string tuned down to B. I didn't understand the instructions at first and it sounded a bit Ivesian! Should finish it tomorrow I hope. Another quiz question - how many real jokes are there in the chamber repertoire? I love Straesser's little discussion about how fast to take the trio, ending up sounding like the Keystone Cops. I reckon he must have been thinking of the end of Beethoven's Op 95 ("Serioso"?) which always cracks me up. Ellerton does a nice little "wrong note" joke in the first movement of Op.61 No.3 that probably just sounds like wrong notes the way I play it, but by the third time round a few listeners might get it. Nearly finished notating the first movement of Potter, who also had a rush of Beethoven's blood to his head and gives the first violin an arpeggio passage like in Op.74. Cheers, Steve

The trio of the Straesser reminded me - slightly?- of a couple of things but most definitely (if still vaguely) of the weirdest and last appearance of the trio (/coda) in the 5th movement of Beethoven's C minor quartet... fairly sure there's a personal connection of some sort between Brahms and one or the other of the Gradeners. Chamber music by Brahms' circle has begun to be explored it's true - Herzogenberg's is increasingly and maybe almost entirely at least once recorded, Fuchs' too, Gernsheim's is beginning to get there, Gustav Jenner (his only formal student)'s chamber music is a little recorded also; then there's Dessoff, Dietrich and others... a lot of it seems of some interest (sorry the Fuchs terzetto disappointed though. I hadn't actually heard it, only other works of his- especially his string quartets - especially fine in my opinion but yes, already recorded - and symphonies.) ... not sure where Straesser wrote the discussion though, will look for it. As to quiz question, despite scherzo's origin as 'joke', can't think of so many (I do consider Mozart's Musikalisches Spaß to be a collection of good musical jokes in its way- his only work to end on a tritone, I believe, there's a musical joke for one ;) ) Eric 00:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC):

Sorry - didn't make myself clear. The "discussion" I hear is all in the music (how much in my imagination?). First the cello and first violin start to play a dull German tune at a jog trot. The others go "huh?", the violin answers, guffaws with laughter when he realises he's gone of at half tempo, they agree it should go at twice the speed and it sounds even more ridiculous (like a speeded up phonograph?). There's a brief post-mortem, they decide it hasn't worked and go back and play the scherzo again. The only other chamber music joke I can think of is the hurdy-gurdy at the end of Bartok 5. That bit in Op131 is a wonderful stroke - are they a beat apart? It always gives me a shiver.

re Straesser isn't there a variation in the finale with particular repeated turns of phrase that suggest the Fantasia of Stanford's 3rd quartet, written a few years before after all... Eric 18:54, 23 January 2011 (UTC):

I hadn't noticed that (will check it out), although there are moments in the opening movement that remind me of Castillon!

btw progress on typesetting parts of op42 - exists but slow because of temperature ;) Will get there, apologies! Eric 20:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC):

Here are the two slow(er) movements of the Op42, which I may polish up a bit when you've finished writing the parts. A very nice piece, I think, particularly the impressively dolorous finale which may sound a bit odd because I played around with the speed towards the end. I found one mistake in your first violin part of I - a spurious Ab in bar 57. Of course I is a lot more technical than II and IV, but looks and feels good. Cui's Op68 was well enough, just not very exciting. And the BL won't let me have Miles's 3 pieces for violin and piano, saying they're in copyright! This from the organization that happily provided me with the unpublished Bishop ms. I've asked them for clarification and am also awaiting the final verdict from the RAM. Cheers, Steve

ok, I need to go over that with the finer-toothed sort of comb, and thank you re bar 57. Listened to the Cui (which reminded me a little of one of my early introductions to serious classical music fandom, Borodin's in the same key - very very vaguely reminded, I mean, but still) and to the first of the two Straesser movements today- whose light glum minor-mode mumblings made me think of... not sure. A movement from a quartet by Ernst Toch (1887-1964) I think... I'm wondering if the fact that the end of the finale seems to be identical to that of the first movement (have to check if this is so- it's true of the first violin part in the score) should be highlighted or no- up to you if/when you perform the first movement, whose finished parts (and those of the 12-page also scherzando? marchlike? third) will be done and over your way before too long. Thanks for posting these! Re the Miles- I wonder if someone republished them with what some here on IMSLP call - appropriately I think - a 'copyfraud'-ish notice, one that asserts a copyright renewal when there's no legal right to do so? Some take such notices seriously. The score is (c) 1920 and should have expired... but such things are beyond me too. Eric 02:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC) (ah yes, and one bar after "2"-- that is, in bar 55, that should be c d e-flat f-sharp, not c d e-flat f-natural, for the first four notes, over "dolce espress."... I think I thought it was in C minor/major when it was in G :) )

Listened to the finale of the Straesser quartet 4 - wonderful stuff. (Because of the long-lined, specific as in un-generic, conversational and thought-out melancholy lyricism, it put me in mind of something of a personal favorite quartet slow movement, the 3rd movement of Myaskovsky's 3rd string quartet (a student piece he revised in the 1930s) and a few others also, I think... really good first impression and very well-played. The use of the - yearning? - upward scale that closes the piece at various places throughout the movement - I only noticed when hearing it (I hadn't given it as good a skim as I'd thought...) - and is very effective in conveying not only structure but even a sort of tale (which my mind insists on attaching to some of these pieces, especially the finale of Prokofiev's first string quartet, long my favorite of them all :) ) Even though (Alan) Walker in a volume of one of his biographies of Liszt attaches enough cautionary notes about that sort of thing... Thanks again! Eric 13:18, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Re Straesser: apparently there -is- a 5th string quartet after all (G minor, op.52, published by Steingraber during the 1920s possibly. BSB has it , not I think scanned in yet; but they do have the score, as do about 7 other libraries in Europe -not the UK alas- and the USA. Will see if pub. before 1923 and what else I can find out, and will get more seriously back to getting parts out of mvts 1 and 3 of quartet 4, as well. :) Eric 05:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC):

Yes - Altmann writing in Cobbett says the 2 middle movements are "of a quite unusual order, suggesting, indeed, a musical New World" (in G minor, but was he starting to catch something from Schoenberg?) He says the score was published by Chester - no date but the Op.34 clarinet quintet was published in 1920, so I guess the 5th quartet can't be PD. There's still the second and third quartets to find though! Played the 1st in the foursome flesh on Saturday along with the second movements of P-M and PHM, all much enjoyed. Cheers, Steve.

Apologies for belated response. Have been tired and lazy and distracted but -will- get to stuff, it's not a chore and I do enjoy it truly... will also check ONB's Hofmeister scans for Straesser/Strässer/Sträßer works in the roaring 20s ;) to see if it was noted as published before 1923 (the PD-US date - well, there are other rules too, like whether the publisher remembers to renew, and other things. One would have thought these copyright laws would be simple, or somethi... ok, that sarcasm isn't even funny.) And re Cobbett's comment, intriguing. (Have you heard Zemlinsky's 3rd and 4th quartets?... or also tonally and somewhat earlier- well, all of them are tonal but all of them have something odd about them that's at least of their time, though I don't want to be dismissive that way, I think very highly of these works- the 2nd quartet (G minor - sort of...), in one movement (op31) of Josef Suk?) Eric 01:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC) (Hrm, he may have only been up to opus 43 by 1922 according to HMB- so unless that's a notice of a republication, as sometimes happens with HMB, opus 52 was indeed of later date. Would still be pd-ca unless it was published as posthumously late as 1962, of course - in which case HMB which stopped publication shortly after WW2 would not be too helpful anyway ... ) also, v. glad to hear the other quartetters- quartettistas - enjoyed the P-M, PHM, and EwS (and other works before that :) ) While in no way obscure - ... yet and any more... - my playing Tchaikovsky's serenade for strings in ensemble and other works (well, trying to- and trying to play the even harder viola part to Schumann's 2nd piano quartet...) had a lot of influence on me, I think...) Looking over what I wrote, it's not so much Myaskovski or Toch that the Straesser reminded me of as Medtner's Ballades/Skazki and his 'Forgotten Melodies' (op.38 in particular, which Marc-André Hamelin plays wonderfully on Hyperion, and whose first number, a 'sonata reminiscenza' is sometimes performed separately... anyhow. thanks again!)
Hrm. Further on quartet 5, if it lacks a copyright notice and was published by a certain date (I forget which), I think US copyright law does make it PD-US. And I'm guessing it lacks a copyright notice since libraries usually mention and report such things (though I've noticed several times saying things like 'no copyright notice found' when it's right under the first page of score in clear readable image- but they're not a library, and it's a report of an automated scanning program, not a person...) Eric 16:28, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I find out- Straesser quartet 5- published in 1927 or so (HMB 1927, anyway :) - another source seems to suggest 1926). There seemed little doubt... Found out there's a 3rd symphony (maybe in manuscript), too. I like doing this research... Anyway, may all depend on whether the score when one finds it, has a copyright notice of the right kind, whether it turns out to be PD-US though, because of the Byzantine qualities of the law :) Eric 02:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC):

I guess you could try German sources (Cologne, Stuttgart) to see if anything else survives in ms. Cobbett mentions the third quartet Op15, a piano quintet Op18, piano trio Op33 and violin sonata Op32 all published by "Tischer & J.." (1913, 1911, 1917, 1918 so presumably written in Cologne) plus a wind quintet in ms. And there's also the cello concerto that was given at the 1903 proms. I wondered if I could "do" anything with the clarinet quintet (a tuned down violin, or a bit of pitch cheating with Audacity that I'm starting to think of more as Mendacity), but it's clearly written for a real clarinettist and not a busking fiddler! Cheers, Steve:

I'm a bit amazed to find the British Library have a document listing his compositions, compiled by his widow ( They also have a 1997 edition of the wind quintet, transcribed from the manuscript in Cologne University.

Tischer and Jagenburg I think? I've been beginning to compile a pseudo-quasi-semi-hemidemiworklist of a sort on the talk page of his category together with the wishlist page- ... adding the name of that book and information about it under Extra Information on the cat. page, btw. Thank you. Eric 20:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC) (Mascia string quartet op.110 (no.3, though the other two prob. not much better) not the hardest to read manuscript I have ever tried to typeset, I think- I think that honor may go to Sorabji's toccata IV of 1969 or so which I never did finish the job with at all... - but it is trying to be...) (... 1869 quartet seems of questionable quality too ( 3 String Quartets, Op.a110 (Mascia, Giuseppe) ) - but only cello part, 144-bar-first movement, 3rd quartet, now typeset, first draft. still- ow. .. eyestrain. :) sorry about constant-comment-etc.)

Grädener (the younger?)

(ah yes- Carl Grädener 1812-1883, Hermann 1844-1929. both wrote string octets, too, it seems...) anyhow, downloaded and will listen soon!- the score does look intriguing, very much looking forward to hearing. I doubt much has been recorded or broadcast non-commercially by either composer, though I might be mistaken- I was surprised to hear that one of Straesser's symphonies had been broadcast, after all (but still. ah, a piano trio by Carl Grädener was recorded a few years back, I see, because of the Brahms connection...) Thanks! Have decided to upload a performing edition of score and parts rather than a 'scholarly' one (... right. :) ) of the first movement of the Mascia soonish and get to the other mvts. ... Best! Eric 17:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC):

That octet is a real battleship of a piece - Brahms on steroids? I'm afraid sheer fatigue got me a bit at the end - the finale frankly doesn't live up to the rest of it and the first violin part is pretty fiendish. There must be a precedent, but the best moment for me is in the Variations (III, G major) where the final appearance of the theme is in Eb! Incidentally I'm sure you must have noticed on all the BBC recordings of British music that Albion has recently made available. More Potter than you can shake a stick at, and not at all bad.

Wood quartets

I really should go see about hearing the ASV recording. My CD/mp3 collection makes any attempt on my part to make me come across as a copyright straight-arrow seem something of a joke I think but I have my limits and boundaries. Glad the and sites (and this site in general, as I keep saying) exist for their purposes- it used to be so difficult to find scores hunting library after library that it became the stuff of my dreams in the most literal of senses. (Hey, here's the score of Myaskovsky's 11th symphony, a piece whose one recording at that time really did grab me... - what library am I at?... turned out that when I found it, it was in no more 'fantastic' a library- a rather fantastic library really but not an imaginary one - than the New York Public Library at Lincoln Center, that one. I'd just failed to look closely enough. &c, &c. apologies for digression. Glad to see more music by Wood and more even though I can't always hear all of it myself. Feeling better and will try to get back to the Straesser now that I have that stressor behind me. (Had to.)) Eric 16:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC):

Playing off the score is a bit of a stressor for me, particularly when you have to keep turning pages to make the repeats, middle section, da capo al segno e piu il coda. I can get usually 4 pages onto the screen (we're now 100% paperless), but then my nose is almost up against it. I thought the first two movements of Wood's F major were worth the strain, but that Irish jig... If you REALLY can't hear it I'll send you a link! For some reason Merton's parts of the A minor still seems to be in limbo, or I might have put a recording up. Can't complain about the Macfarren parts, although several months back I did come across one of my Ellerton transcriptions up for sale on a CDROM - wouldn't want to stand in the way of private enterprise. Haven't heard back from the RAM librarian yet (stuff of my dreams - "yes, we do have a box of Miles's manuscripts and personal documents that nobody seems to have looked at since 1922"). This week's little number is Catoire's Op23 - looks tough towards the end but I should be able to make something of the first movement at least. Cheers, Steve.

Which has actually been recorded (the Catoire) (see here (edit: score published 1913 by Russischer Musikverlag...) Which surprises me, though I knew several of his piano-accompanied chamber works had been and had heard a few- quite good all! Hope to hear the quartet... Upgraded Lilypond again but latest version has some advantages so seemed worthwhile. :) Can well believe re playing off score alright especially in more... labyrinthine sections, and forget about it in a manuscript ... Eric 10:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Looking forward to the Catoire if you decide to go ahead with it btw or did I miss it? Also String Quartet, Op.17 (Krehl, Stephan) of 1899 is another piece that looks interesting (not that this site lacks for them I suppose), A major quartet with impatient opening and A minor finale :D Eric 07:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC):

Thanks to your info I bought the Catoire CD instead - a lot less trouble for a better result! A bit feverish for my taste - can't get along with Scriabin or Szymanowsky for the same reason. I'll take a look at the Krehl but this week I've got unfinished business with Ellerton's quintet which I think is pretty good in parts. Unfortunately the finale isn't one of them. Cheers, Steve.

Any number of composers I'm not into of course, and Szymanowski only became one of the ones I am into - not sure when, really. Likewise Scriabin, but mostly not his orchestral music (tend to quip that Myaskovsky's 2nd and 3rd are Scriabin's best symphonies, which is unfair to both of them especially since the former two are among my favorite of the 27 Myaskovsky wrote...) though Szymanowski's 2nd and 3rd symphonies -have- grown on me. Ellerton's quintet? intriguing- have skimmed the parts and that is to look forward to (my grammar is fractured even in my native language, yes.) could always just upload some of the movements rather than all :) (same goes with PDFs, I sometimes have to remind myself- just because the first movement of someone else's scan - or in the rare case I'm scanning a score I own, of mine - is unusable, maybe an inner movement, or a complete instrument/vocal part, or even a complete instrument/vocal part of one movement, can be rescued and the page created anyway... have done that before certainly. Eric 09:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the Merton Ellerton quintet parts. Seem to be missing the cello 2 last pages?? Not the performance, the parts themselves. A question I should put to KGill (and Mr. Wyatt) but I wanted to get a 2nd opinion to see if I was out of my mind - well, about this. I already know I am. :) Downloaded files, looking forward to listening- thanks! Eric 17:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC):

You aren't mad, it's the system! Thanks to Merton's A3 printing method you have to go backwards from the end to see the higher numbered pages. But I believe there's a large cache of Merton editions (including several Ellerton quartets for sure) that still for some reason still haven't been uploaded.

I thought I looked for that page everywhere actually (with the closing bar of the 2nd cello part of the finale)- I just missed it on the first pass-through. The Merton parts are definitely designed for printing, there's no question - not that this is a vice, really (well - I have learned of groups, and presumably soloists, that use IMSLP and play off the computer screen rather than printing out the parts first. But even then an image-editor can rearrange the pages, true.) I'm a little surprised the Spain-Dunk quartet score @Merton was uploaded as her music isn't PD-CA/EU - I was thinking of taking the parts that are at Sibley Library's server and uploading them to , actually. I gather though that someone - Spain-Dunk's estate? - gave Merton transferrable permission to publish the score and us therefore to host the pdfs on our site. (Raises the to-me interesting question of whether that permission extends to the parts!) I do wonder what does stop the rest of the scores they have from being transferred though if it's not just a matter of they'd rather not :) (btw meant 2nd cello - last pages, not cello "2 last pages" of course) Eric 18:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC):

Merton's parts are a bit irritating to play off the screen with more page turns than there should be, but for my purposes certainly better than a score. I had a go at the Susan S-D from parts I bought from Merton, but I believe it's been done commercially c/w the Smyth quartet. Like Percy, Susan was a quartettist-composer from Kent (Dame Ethyl too!) who actually did get several pieces played at the Proms. Her active period seems to be more or less contiguous with Percy's but I believe nobody ever saw them in the same room at the same time... OK, now I'm going mad. Steve

Well, until yesterday I didn't know if anyone had any guesses as to her dates of birth and death, or any further biographical info, so it could have been an alias, a second publishing and performing id (Warlock doesn't count, did Philip Heseltine publish anything he composed under his own name? hrm. I'd have to look into that.)... like "Jean Hanze" for Joseph Holbrooke after all... just it seems not to have been. Oh, you mean an alias for Percy - that would have been odder still. No madder than me when I try, though! (Okaaay, maybe I should not be announcing that.) Wasn't Percy from Erith, not Kent, or do I get things very confused? Eric 13:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC) (alas even in a place where links to notable people who do not yet have pages is traditionally tolerated-- wikipedia:List_of_people_from_Folkestone - Spain-Dunk does not yet merit an entry. Maybe my next task is to write her a brief stub... hrm! I mean, after typesetting a bit more of the (expl.del. Mascia op.a110 no.3) quartet and getting some chores done, of course. but I like the idea. :) Eric 13:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder when the Ellerton quintet was written as against published, and when Mendelssohn's quartet opus 80 was given its English premiere, what its reception was, whether Ellerton heard it... doubt its reception was positive really, that quartet is not so mainstream "Mendelssohnian" as I think the term might have been understood then. Ellerton's quintet has some of the melancholy of Mendelssohn's (posthumous??) 2nd string quintet (inner movements) in places I'd say- first movement , maybe second, anyway- and maybe in other ways the finale reminds me of the other composer too (i'll think about whether it's weak compared to the other three movements, but the difference didn't jump out at me; I liked all four mvts. of the Ellerton a lot. ... Actually, the opening of the finale does remind me a little bit of the opening of the finale of Mendelssohn's opus 80 quartet - of his six complete and published (not counting the early E-flat and opus 81 pieces) quartets..., the one I know best probably along with opus 44/1 in D, at present, though I've heard them all except maybe the early w/o opus E-flat... anyway... - though without the driving off-beat background rhythm.) Hrm. The choice of key is probably entirely coincidence anyway... I just couldn't help thinking that Mendelssohn, argued to be a great influence in England's musical scene generally for numerous reasons, had just written his last major work a couple of years before, and that it was in the same key, though a quartet (and a stunning though again admittedly uncharacteristic one though not unprecedented in his earlier work, to repeat myself :) ) and not a quintet. Eric 17:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC):

I think all Ellerton's string chamber pieces date from between about 1845 and 1865. A quintet (I have a second one in ms, plus a third with two of the parts missing.) was reviewed in Schumann's Neue Zeitschrift für Musik in 1850 so Mendelssohn's late pieces could well have been in his mind (he spent a lot of time in Germany too). That "drumbeat" accompaniment in the finale is very well, only it crops up in so many of the quartets too it must have one of his favourite devices. Yesterday tried Krehl (very bland - pity because I liked the sound of his clarinet quintet) and Winkler (very academic for a Russian) before settling I think on Leo Sachs (Debussy and water) for next week. Cheers, Steve 27.3.11

btw... re Creative Commons licenses...

this is one example of what Carolus may have been referring to - a company offering your freely offered work at a price of $4 USD per violin part of that quartet, etc. (ah, apologies, not the best example- that's a link to the original Kistner parts, isn't it. let me see, they probably do have your parts up for sale too though...) Eric 16:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC) ... scratch that whole thing, they've actually become careful. never mind.

Ah. did you know that Mr. Silvertrust (his surname as far as I know- which is why it's 'Edition Silvertrust' :) ) is using your mp3s of the Straesser quartet no.4 on his site though? (I rather like him and approve of his company, and he's used midis I've made on his site until better versions have come along- anyhow, this is what I'm referring to :) ) Eric 21:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC):

Well I guess I can't complain. It looks like he's copied the last set of parts in existence and not done the decent thing by uploading them! But if we can all buy them for $24.95 is it worth your while copying them out from score? Either way I certainly want to find out how the whole piece goes one day. Cheers, Steve.

These things do get pricey but at least it would be quicker :( maybe I should work on the Neal instead. Getting good practice still and learning (still) more about this (mumblemumble) complicated program- e.g. that I could have used the "tempo" command rather than the workarounds I was using... erm- anyway. In re Stanford and the RAM, was this the archive you were referring to recently? Interesting! Eric 04:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Miles Pieces

glad to see! Sorry to have to move the page though. Saw the article in the IMSLP Journal by the way - thanks, shall endeavour to be of service! Eric 14:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

question out of curiosity

I gather he's mentioned in Cobbett (as a performer, as a "Captain A.S. Beaumont")- what might you know about Alex S. Beaumont ? :) Thanks and sorry about the odd question... Eric 00:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC):

Interesting - somehow he eluded me completely. I don't have any other info but Cobbett gives his dates as 1848-1913 and describes him as a generous patron of the arts who published several chamber works of ambitious design at his own expense, including two suites for piano and strings, one of them dedicated to Cobbett. He makes vaguely approving noises, but then he would, wouldn't he? Speaking of Wood, I should be ready to dish up the Highgate quartet very soon. A really good piece, on a par I think with Stanford 3 (which must have been written a few years later) if not 2. I'm waiting to get hold of a 1978 book on his music (Copley). And the RAM have finally invoiced me (very reasonably) for copying Percy's composition list, cello concerto, clarinet quintet, 2nd string quintet and two late songs. Best, Steve.

Having a look at a few other (more PD-EU) quartets etc. also just out of curiosity (then going back to the Mascia :) ).Will also see if I can find other PD-EU qts on and Sibley etc not yet uploaded to IMSLP just to increase the annoyance :) Of ones already here, Dimitrescu(o)’s 4th, Gm., quartet, for example published in 1889- can't tell just offhand about the part-writing but it seems to have a goodly amount of emotion (again, can't tell from a first look if the expression of that emotion has features worth a second look, though it seems to, anyway...) As to Sachs, I'm reminded of something Debussy did say about people who tried to mimic him, but then I don't know if Sachs was one of them. Watered-down Debussy or not, thanks for giving it a go- I think I remember liking what I saw in the score and look forward to, again :)! ... " avant-garde audience was unable to distinguish Debussy from Leo Sachs" (from Ravel: Man and Musician" by Arbie Orenstein, courtesy of Google Books. v.brief excerpt. I’ll have to check the context soon...) Eric 01:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC):

Done my thing with Sachs - fun to put together, particularly the finale, although thematically not hugely distinguished (note the big dig in the ribs towards the end - "remember my opening theme?!"). I wasn't at all impressed with Dimitrescu's third, but maybe he got it together for the fourth so I'll certainly take a look. Steve 30.3.11

Could be. They were published in 1889 but I know nothing about their composition dates. I think there's a 5th published later, I forget... btw re signatures, don't know if you know the 3-or-4 tilde trick... probably but... ~~~~ Eric 19:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Only listened to the Sachs once and didn’t catch that (then again was distracted, poss. on bus, at the time? I think- will listen again several times - did enjoy, anycase.) Looking forward to listening to the newly uploaded Brandts-Buys quartet (perhaps composed before 1911 as the opus 25 Romantic Serenade is said to have been composed and even maybe published in 1905, but opus numbers confuse me much too much :) - what with at one time not long ago (J. Klengel?) the same opus number being provided by two different publishers for two different works, and.. .well.... anyway. ) Eric 16:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

A different kind of question- after like some other people encountering Reicha through recordings of (or in some cases parts of) his wind music, I found out he wrote string quartets and symphonies, too (none, i think, of the former, of which he wrote quite a few, are recorded. A musicologist has made quite an effort to make new editions of the unpublished ones, I believe, among other Reicha-related things, and organized a first modern performance, I think he wrote on his blog, of a Reicha string quartet. not sure which one.) anyhow, it did seem to be only a matter of time before, in this particular case 3 String Quartets, Op.95, by Anton Reicha were posted to (first scanned by Sibley and then posted to, rather) IMSLP (first, I think, published 1824). Look interesting at all? Eric 23:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC):

They're on my "maybe one day" list. Cobbett's contributor says the later ones can be interesting, but "the editor" doesn't seem to agree. I read in some article that Ellerton is supposed to have studied with him in Paris, but no source. btw hope you got the Picasa link to the Miles cello concerto ms. If we can't publish him, why not leak him to a few (hundred) close friends?. Hey, the tildes work! Matesic 07:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)


Dear Steve, thanks for all your hard work; via your efforts, I could finally appreciate a bit of the work of my fellow citizen Leone Sinigaglia, not to mention the many other completely forgotten works you recorded in this months (right now I'm listening to Brandt Buys String quartet op.19....Gosh, you did an INCREDIBLE work). What about working on his String Quartet Op.27? I have seen many times the original manuscript in our school library, and I know it was considered to be something of his "masterwork" around the time of its any case, as we say in Italy, grazie di cuore ("thanks from the heart"). Jacopo (Turin - Italy):

Kind words, much appreciated! I did take a look at Sinigaglia's Op.27 and was put off by a slightly "Regerish" feeling, but Casella writing in Cobbett's Cyclopedic Survey rates it very highly so I'll keep it in mind. Too much choice! Very best wishes, Steve:

Hi again Jacopo - thanks for making me persist with Sinigaglia's quartet. It took a while but now I really enjoy it. All the best, Steve.

Dear Steve, thanks so much for your work. I'll listen to the string quartet as soon as possible, and I'll be back here! Jacopo

Interesting interesting interesting and really good stuff... the Sinigaglia is Regerian in at least one way with all those unisons- must get to know it better though... great to have the opportunity! (decided to start to typeset the rather lengthy c minor quartet no.6 by Pappalardo- 1856-1879 or maybe 1856 with an epigraph written in 1879, or something. 1200 or so bars? 60 pages, one part 2 pages sort-of-typeset with lots of question marks about hard-to-read but also possibly eccentric expression marks- will have to go back to the original scans from Internet Culturale to see if they're better resolution. anyhow, thanks again and cheers!! Eric 03:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

C Schumann

it's possible. I have my doubts. Camillo Schumann's opus 1 and later fully-identified works started to appear in 1897, while "C. Schumann" wrote a series of works, including these three string quartets, from 1887 to 1894. I think it possible that Camillo Schumann was biding his time as a teen writing works under a sort-of-pseudonym, but there's also the alternative that Carl Schumann, cantor, 1835-1910, was the composer. Libraries list Carl Schumann as the composer but absent, I think, any positive evidence- but still, I don't know if Cobbett had any either? Eric 13:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Gernsheim 5

listening to. A delight this - reminds me of the Minguet-Quartett recording on MDG of Fuchs' quartet 4 in the same key (from about 5 years later, in publishing date anyway). Really good- thanks again!! Eric 04:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC):

Also tried Gernsheim's 3rd a while back - found the leaps in the first violin part a bit hard going but I'll dig it out again some day. Do all his quartets contain a "sincere tribute" to Brahms? I hear the G minor piano quartet and Op.51/2 string quartet in No.1, 3rd symphony in No.3, clarinet quintet in No.5... Yesterday reluctantly gave up on Gliere's 2nd sextet - the 5/4 scherzo was hairy enough, but the finale! As an antidote got out Alexanian's Petite Suite Armenienne, which seems pretty radical for its date. Meanwhile, re Percy Miles, I gather his Strad was the "General Kyd" also played by Perlman. Gerri Cox his Australian relative (mother's branch) is currently on a European tour and will be staying a few days with a friend in my town. The world keeps shrinking. Cheers, Matesic 06:25, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't tell you- I haven't even yet heard Gernsheim's (piano) quartets that have been recorded, more's the pity. Yet, that is. (Nor the piano quintets, trios,... the cello sonata no.1, cello concerto, 4 symphonies, yes, and glad of them :) Oddly, the 4th Gernsheim symphony reminds me a little bit of Berwald 4? which I suspect Gernsheim couldn't possibly have known- nor was the Gernsheim composed when the Berwald ws written. Meanwhile keep thinking that a refrain from Sinigaglia D major first movement reminds me of some quartet or something- but not one of Reger's six... plus a hint of Nielsen along the way, too. ) Never even heard of Alexanian yet. Interesting re Ms. Cox- hope something about Miles' legacy and perhaps permissions comes of that. Am up to the exposition repeat first mvt. (bar 157...) in the Pappalardo. (Hrm. Marcato e dispetto, indeed. :D) Best!! Eric 06:54, 18 May 2011 (UTC)


that was a surprise choice (assuredly not in any negative sense!). looking forward as usual to downloading! :) Eric 07:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC):

Yes - fancied something not too demanding for the weekend! The andante I thought good in parts although I'm not sure he was quite on top of some of the progressions. The scherzo was just good fun. Wood's Highgate quartet went down well in vivo on Sat. Cheers Matesic 09:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


In Memoriam, too? (as I say too often but do still intend and am not disappointed, looking forward to.) (as to Gernsheim, there’s also the first of the two string quintets- the second I think was not published during his lifetime - though as opus 9 perhaps too early- still- hrm. also not to my knowledge commercially recorded.) Anyhow, thanks!!! Eric 02:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC):

Organ is the only other instrument I can plausibly fake. In fact, I reckon all organists could be replaced by computers. The third quartet is my favourite of Gernsheim's so far, in spite of all the Brahms references. The Op9 quintet (pre Brahms?) could make an interesting comparison. Cheers Matesic 05:58, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Hrm, not sure when Gernsheim encountered Brahms’ music or when the two met (I assume they did- erm... actually, wait). Wonder how much about the former’s biography I can determine... Gernsheim sym 1 is pre-publication of Brahms sym. 1, true... (though if they knew each other, this sometimes remarked-on fact takes on much less significance. "Hey, Friedrich, let me show you my new manuscript..." - actually, somehow, that just doesn’t scan as Brahms, somehow. Though maybe in turn that shows how little I know about him, even after reading MacDonald’s bio - awhile back, true.) ... Hrm. According to John Kersey, Friedrich Gernsheim met Brahms later in his career, in 1868 (presumably, meaning met for the first time, here - I see the quintet was published that year, but Brahms might conceivably have made some suggestions as he did with Dvorak pre-publication. still -don’t know.) Eric 15:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC):

Cobbett/Altmann doesn't help much - points out his friendship with Bruch but doesn't mention Brahms. Also no mention of G. in Swafford's Brahms biography. G's quintet predates Brahms's string quartets, but not of course the sextets so I wouldn't be surprised to hear some echoes. I feel inclined to make a list of all the Brahms references I think I spotted in quartets 1, 3 and 5. Coming up soon, some brand new Percy Miles for your ears only... Matesic 18:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Contributions I've read from Swafford in internet discussion forums make me disposed to like him - what little I've read of his Brahms biography does not (he oversimplifies, even I would say somewhat falsifies, parts of the Brahms/Liszt quarrel, and the nature of Liszt’s "side" of it; and the greater War of the Romantics as well- much too much even allowing that his biography is much briefer than Walker’s far more nuanced account in the second volume (The Weimar Years) of his Liszt biography.) Erm. Tangent. Sorry. Walker- has his own troubles. Eric 18:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC) (I am surprised Mr. Silvertrust hasn’t asked to use some of your other Gernsheim recordings now, at that. I do see he’s added attribution to many, perhaps all, of your recordings that he uses, all to the good of course...):

No trace of Brahms in the quintet (to my ears), no Mozart either but lots of Mendelssohn and a bit of late Beethoven (Op127) in the Andante? Definitely a good piece, although you'd have to say Gernsheim never really developed a voice of his own. Where would orchestral and instrumental music have gone without Brahms? Matesic 18:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC):

OK, maybe he did recycle the opening of the Bb sextet, as far as the falling third...Matesic 14:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Hrm. Downloaded it and had a look at the score- the scherzo does suggest Mendelssohn or some Schumann or just that time, there's something about the breadth of the opening movement that makes me expect I might hear something later-Romantic in it (... maybe I will end up thinking Brahms first sextet from the sound, the look of the score had me thinking it for a moment for some reason. I still remember the first time I heard that work - 1987 I think it was.) I've skimmed the quintet before (not so much from the copy here as at New York Public Library I think) and failed to notice that D minor finale :)... Re Miles, are you in communication with his relative who will be visiting nearby? You've wanted to discuss manuscript-permission related matters with his relatives at some point though finding a way to do so properly I expect may be difficult.

couple of other things - it seems that the range of scanning places has expanded, so am looking for yet more quartets, quintets, etc. if you are ever looking for more repertoire (... ok, which I doubt- you are probably getting quite full already, at a guess :) ) Eric 15:21, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Stanford piano qt 2 in C minor (?)

Apparently and hearkening back to a rather earlier conversation Naxos will next month be releasing a CD with CV Stanford's 1st piano trio (not a premiere) and 2nd piano quartet (as far as I know, very much one) (Naxos weblink (I'd escape things out to use the Plain template but that breaks the link) ) :) Eric 05:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC):

That's good to hear, now the Hyperion "series" seems to have come to a dead stop - I can't even get hold of one of the existing albums (piano and string quintets). I played the first piano trio a couple of years ago and enjoyed it. Work on Gernsheim's quintet got suspended yesterday when one of my computers crashed - all backed up apart from several hours of work on Percy's cello concerto. Just hoping someone can rescue it. Gnash Matesic 07:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Having had to replace and back up my Mac's hard drive twice in a few years I can sympathize directly with that! Eric 12:51, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


ah neat! :) Eric 04:03, 11 June 2011 (UTC)


early reaction while listening- I like this! More detailed though still brief reaction- the harmonies and harmonic progressions of the first movement reminded me of another (and an excellent) work published around the same time, the 2nd string quartet of Josef Suk (op.31) (composed around 1911, published 1912. We don't have it but do have other works by him from around the same time that may give an idea what I'm talking about- perhaps some parts of his Lullabies, Op.33). ( Eric 22:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC):

I like it too, thinking of Debussy (sometimes a bit too close?) via Verklaerte Nacht, but some extraordinary passages all his own. Another one whose manuscripts should be worth tracking down? Never properly got to know Suk's 2nd quartet which looks a bit too technical, but the Meditation on Wenceslas definitely. CheersMatesic 07:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The Suk is a long piece but I recommend getting to hear it sometime (I prefer a recording reissued on Supraphon) at least- there's a very specially good B major (I think it's in that key) recurring contrasting slow section, and the rest isn't bad either...

(It was something my mind went to when I saw the B major beginning of the 2nd group of the Pappalardo first movement, actually, though they are not similar. The Suk's contrasting section(?) is - maybe less lyrical than almost withdrawn and meditative.) Will think about what the technical part, though- am not a performer and have not that point of view, and it is valuable. It is true he insists on bringing the themes - contrasting section, all the sections - together in various different ways - and this can be done well or badly - I think it's done well but that is opinion.

Heard the rest of the Perinello - especially impressed by the slow movement which on a first listen may lack direction (and I would not insist on that being the case, I may not have heard it right) but the polyphony reminds me of passages I love in composers several generations later (like Holmboe - also tonal or more or less, and in his late quartets capable of creating this maybe similar impression of the most flowing interactions among his instrumental lines.) Looking forward to the Sinigaglia H.M. (once unblocked- someone told me that being an admin gives me access to such things but apparently this is not the case and I do not think I would or should use it for such an un-adminish reason even if it did :) ) Eric 13:31, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

about composers to try, can add a few more suggestions here and there- one American (String Quartet, Op.27, by Blair Fairchild, in G minor, pub. 1911. hrm. looking at it again, I like the ending, and not because it's the ending!) and some Scandinavian ones like, oh- hrm... String Quartet in D major by Mads Gregers Dam (ca.1810?), the quartets of Georg Gerson (in manuscript- his opus 1 was a published string quartet, I don't know if it's one of the manuscript quartets or not, in anycase I don't think any of them are recorded- can work on parts for those while working on the Pappalardo if they look interesting (and can try to hurry up) ), also String Quartet No.2, Op.2, by Joachim Nicolas Eggert (also pub. ca.1810?)(one of Eggert's quartets has been recorded, not sure which one- ah. in C minor. Op.2 is in G minor.) , String Sextet by Per August Ölander in A major (score and parts in it seems quite readable manuscript copy from Merton Music online uploaded here) Eric 22:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

also, going to skim 2 odd-looking or at least odd-labeled :) quartets and a sextet by François Fémy, another early Romantic. Admittedly lots of them on this site, but will try to get an idea, though I can't judge part-interaction... Eric 00:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC):

Looking for criteria how to choose what to record I once thought I might only go for composers with silly names, e.g. Pick-Mangiagalli, Brandts Buys etc. Mads Gregers Dam of course went straight onto the short list, but unfortunately I didn't fancy the music much. Going back to your last inspiration but three or four, some of Suk's piano pieces (that I don't know at all) look like they might go well on strings, but I'll try not to get distracted from the last few pages of Percy's cello concerto. From my point of view it's a blessing that most of the forgotten romantic quartets aren't too hard to play, but paradoxically that could be a factor against them being taken up professionally. Mastering a few technical difficulties certainly adds to the satisfaction quotient. Of course there's a difference between "good" difficulties and "bad" ones that make you feel "$%£! this" and try something else. And all those "quatuors brillants" where the first violin plays a concerto while the rest chug along in the background. It looks like most of Fesca's are that way inclined, apart from the Op.12 which is another thing altogether. Strange... Matesic 07:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Did become I gather quite the fad in part of the 19th century. Don’t know if Spohr started it, and only know one (quintuor) brillant by him at all well, I think (the first of the opus 33, from a CD I have containing both; the other doesn’t seem to be a quintuor brillant at all.

There’s a whole history Alfred Einstein goes through, in his Mozart: His Character, His Work, on the crisis of the string quartet in the Classical Era, or I should say Haydn’s crisis mainly and mainly between opus 20 and opus 33... and why Einstein (musicologist, not a close relation to the physicist, probably) thought that in the time between the writing of those two sets of quartets was the birth of the quartet as Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven in his earlier days knew and wrote for it. Opus 20 with its (iirc) fugues here and violin-centered/accompaniment writing there; opus 33 with the introduction of obbligato writing - violin 1 still first among equals but doesn’t keep the limelight and every instrument has something to say - and sometimes even takes first place, yes, even my viola. No fugues, no evocations of the Baroque (choral works of the early Classical would interchange Rococo and faux-Baroque or even Renaissance movements - but polyphonic writing/imitiation/etc. within an otherwise up-to-date movement, no). Soon after Haydn has this crisis, so does Mozart- which is why Einstein mentions it at all, naturally enough... the whole idea of the quatuor brillant reminds me of several things (one of them being that while it’s been described as a concerto for violin and string trio, it’s usually a very, very bad one with little if any at all of the interaction and solo-accompaniment back-and-forth you find in a the best real concertos - like Mozart’s C minor concerto)... anyway. but there are, I think, some good ones, like those by the apparent originator of the fad, or so it seems to me! alas, no new ground to be found there, as most of Spohr’s have, I think, been recorded or soon will be. I hoped we had one of Ludvig Norman’s quartets - though some of them have been recorded or at least broadcast, I have two of them on tape (one unpublished, I think, the E major supposedly with op.20?) - good pieces, they sound like. but no such luck so far... it did seem to me that the Nordic regions were not well-covered yet by SBB, but that might have been for better reasons than I thought (not for lack of good music perhaps but lack of good music available here and as yet unrecorded.) Speaking of easy pieces for string quartet, I should upload Carl Schumann’s quartet no.3 from that volume, it’s been long enough :). Sorry about the portmanteau response and thanks again! Eric 18:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC):

On an admin note, today I woke up feeling a bit twitchy about some particularly dodgy violin in the Perinello (the opening and that great pp passage in the Andante) and substituted revised files for m's 1 and 3, but now it's reappeared on the main page nothing seems to have changed. Any ideas? More interestingly, Charles Rosen also has good insight into what Haydn did differently with his Op.33, kind of blurring the distinction between "tune" and "accompaniment" but without the real democracy of fugue. Cabinet music? See what I did there? - chamber/cabinet music, presidential/cabinet government?. Total nonsense, I expect. But I'm quite confident in saying I can't and won't do "brillant". Re Nordic quartets, did you listen to Meilck's? I think I hear a few splashes of local colour, and the opening rhythm surely comes straight from Karelia. Finally, I really hope the rest of Straesser's quartets will turn up eventually. I noticed first two up for sale on Abebooks, but would prefer not to expend cash Matesic 20:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

new files sometimes take a few days to show up on the workpages of the pages they've been uploaded to, I think. it's a IMSLP-siteside-cachepurge-sort-of-thing. (This is above and beyond any browser-side cachepurge-sort-of-thing :) ) Will check, though!... and chamber music referred- well, I think the origin was somewhere in Tudor times?... hrm... (have this very very good in my opinion book English chamber music, the history of a great art from the middle ages to Purcell (the 1946 title grabbed from Worldcat...) from - will have to check my copy, it was first published in 1946, written by Ernst Hermann Meyer. Social, musical, multifaceted history of music with many music examples. (No surprise that I adore a book - like Walker's Liszt biography, or this one- that tries to do both, be expansive and detailed - as well as it can anyway...)

I think I listened to the whole of the Mielck a few days after it was uploaded and thought it quite good but should have said as much (and think there's a quartet no.2 around somewhere and wonder where...) I also wish someone would record Sinding's quartet op70 (I'm aware it's non-PD-EU though.) Made a MIDI of its first movement awhile back and was impressed by it (then again, spend that much time working on a MIDI and sometimes the self-justification reflex kicks in, I know. Still, I did think it was pretty good, with good lyricism and dynamism.)

and I wonder what happened to Straesser's cello concerto in D ("the solo part of which was performed for the first time in England on the 9th ult. [9 Oct. 1903] by Herr Karl Piening, principal violoncellist of the Meiningen Orchestra" - not a memorable work further writes the reviewer for the Musical Times - apparently not, as, well, it would seem to have vanished?... 1 cello concerto (maybe), 2 violin concertos (maybe - not sure where either has gone, just that each is mentioned somewhere)... will listen to his piano concerto soon, anyway... Eric 22:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, for me to download sound files with this browser (Safari) I actually do have to go to the sound file page (otherwise it takes me to this listen-but-not download page which is not very helpful). So not sure if I'll be able to readily tell when the change takes effect (well, unless I go back to another browser of course, of which I have a few downloaded. Should do that to test.) Eric 12:57, 21 June 2011 (UTC):

No problem - the files got changed as you predicted. Currently halfway through recording Helsted's quartet and enjoying it hugely. Cheers Matesic 15:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

And then hopefully someone will post his (apparently) other 4 :). I expect to enjoy it too, for my own part! Eric 17:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Further re the Straesser cello concerto- another place that mentions it is the BBC Proms archive- since the place it got its UK premiere was in fact at one of the Proms :) (another article on the concert describes him as a professor at the Cologne Conservatory at that point and at least does find the middle movement, a brief intermezzo, pleasing...) Eric 09:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


The first two movements are quite modern and individual, very well written, the last two distinctly odd. Was he being ironical? I get the same feeling sometimes with Nielsen, and not just with the late pieces. "Odd" also appears in his Danish Wikipedia entry. Also tried Blair Fairchild - shouldn't condemn on the evidence of one movement, but boy did he like Debussy! All the obvious tricks but nothing new to say, 20 years on. Read through all of Zolotarev's second but didn't get fired up, nor by Weingartner's second. Matesic 18:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the Weingartner will be recorded soon anyway by cpo (let's see - quartets 1 and 3 on volume 1, quartet 5 on volume 2 - quartets 2 and 4 on volume 3 upcoming, at a guess.) I tend to like the feeling of irony or distance I get from Zemlinsky (eg) later quartets, but it's certainly not to all tastes. Eric 01:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC):

Doesn't quite hang together I think, but definitely worth doing. Loved the first two movements, the andante I'd say is on the weird side of odd, the finale probably more gauche than ironic. He has to be joking with those semiquavers at the end though!Matesic 16:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Just listened to a moment of it as I got back from something, will hear the whole thing later- it sounds really good. As suggestions go though I still have probably made too many- is Scontrino's G minor out because all 4 movements are just too long (hrm- a point, as the movements work out to 12 min/6 min/8 min/11 min in the performance I have), or somesuch (midis of that quartet created by friend Mr. Lim long ago - and uploaded with permission to my possibly soon to be dismantled or moved website - here - that's the only performance I have). (I'm especially fond of the D major Adagio, but I know my subjectivity when I hear it! The first movement does lose some focus - though with some fine melodies and really only relatively speaking I believe..., but the 2nd movement and finale are pretty good too.) Eric 03:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

unfortunately, only score, no parts here as yet

i see that the British Lib. has the parts in the reading room which is not maybe much help... the just-uploaded-by-Sibley String Quartet, Op.21, by Lothar Windsperger looks pretty good - especially the last few pages, at least. need to get back to you about the rest... Eric 13:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC):

Will keep an eye open. Meanwhile Madeleine Dedieu-Peters seems to be misspelled in the Composers list, assuming she approved the top pages page of her 3 Pieces for string quartet - lovely little jewels I thought. Cheers Matesic 17:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I am thinking me that I goofed when I created that category. ... checking... Eric 00:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC) hrm. Musicsack has Peteres... but its compiler goofs too. Will keep looking... the parts make one think. in the 1780s publications often had names misspelled (e.g. the piano quartet by "Mozard" recently uploaded to Sibley, not atypical sort of thing even a century later), but hopefully in the 1920s it's often a sign the other way around... (ok, moved):

"Madeleine" too, don't you think? Online sources for these French composers seem to be pretty scarce. Popping over there today, but don't expect to learn much! Matesic 06:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I think I lost the thread of that conversation - there- British Library? I -think- the parts were in the St. Pancras division so unless you were headed over to that branch in particular... well, lots of stuff in the other branches worth looking at, I'd think, though I do not speak from a performer's experiences here it's true. If the score looks interesting enough though I could always try to focus on that instead as a typesetting project of course... hopefully more successfully. Anyhow, cheers! Eric 03:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC):

Me too - which piece are we talking about - Windsperger? Cobbett says "a thoughtful and at times dramatic work of considerable technical difficulty", but I haven't dared look at it yet. The British Library unfortunately doesn't lend. Their imaging service is very good but of course costs money - up to 50 images of a single catalogue item for about £30. The parts of Percy's sextet are there too, so when the collected works finally get published in 2039... Meanwhile Vitols's quartet starts well but the substance seems to leak away in III. and IV. Planning to try Godard 3 next, followed by Straesser 5 which Ray Silvertrust kindly sent. Cheers Matesic 06:36, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah neat! It would be just my luck if Steingraber did remember to put a ©-notice on the quartet (even though some library catalog listings fail to notice it). (If they forgot to put one with date anywhere, I think it's PD-US despite being after 1922, though I gather the law's a bit complicated- when isn't it... worth recording anycase of course. I get more and more impressed by his music considering I hadn't heard of him at all a year or so ago- which should be a non-sequitur I suppose. And I had had no clue Godard wrote any chamber music at that time; now I gather there are at least two contemporary composers of that surname who did, one of them the one we know :) . Having too much fun looking these things up, I think. Hope you are enjoying performing them.) Eric 12:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC):

The finale scuppered me in places but overall it felt well worth the effort. His harmonic language came a long way between 1901 and 1927, although I can't help feeling the more conservative middle movements are the best. No copyright issues for me of course, but it seems unlikely that Silvertrust will be able to republish for a few years. Matesic 12:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Looking forward to hearing sometime! If there was a copyright notice with date right there, then it's outright odd - though not that odd :( - that some library catalog listings had either no date (like the Basel catalog, which just has a plate number, 2285 Steingraber parts) or Newberry Library Illinois which has again a plate number (2284 - score and edition no.2433) and for date, "19??"- (and Worldcat has 3 other libraries with the score which give "192?" for date) ... ?? oh. maybe the copyright date is on the parts but not the score... that is not unknown- though no library mentions it- odd still. ... I only found out the date using HMB- hard way about when it was right there :) Hearing some good stuff lately though not having much luck finding more string ensemble music to upload for a rainy day so to speak unfortunately. As to Straesser, even his earlier music (well, up to 1920- not so much earlier) suggests he's been a real discovery... I wonder if there's something else from that period that can be arranged for string ensemble (I might try my hand at that...) (or if you want to try his violin sonata op.32 with a local pianist at some point down the line..., not for recording but out of interest). Anycase, thanks again, cheers and best! Eric 16:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

  • cackle* and that (recent chat) would be? *plunks an F octave* Eric 17:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Wetz - I have seen one of them (I think the later one, recorded on MDG in 1993, a recording I haven't heard) in a library I think and the parts of the earlier one here too. Have heard five works of his (three symphonies, one in an earlier recording though sometimes on the radio in the newer one, the violin concerto, overture) at least on recordings. Quartet no.1- would be a good addition! :) ...

Francmesnil- hrm... maybe closer to Fauré or someone than Debussy or at least to later Debussy? Eric 21:20, 20 August 2011 (UTC) (ooh, so that is what you've been busy at... must hear, yes!):

When he started the piece "tres decide" with two downbows he must have known the whole audience would nod in recognition, although I think there's some Ravel in there too and also a bit of Breton(?) folkiness that could be all his own (actually reminds me slightly of Charles Wood's oirishry) Matesic 07:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Breton folkiness- ok, now that makes me think Ropartz immediately. But good point on the first point. Eric 12:44, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


well, I will now- thanks much!! Eric 14:37, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Hrm. Was supposedly (I wonder who says so and on what evidence...) composed in 1916... the war was in progress then, but a lament for the war dead is possible. (Still haven't heard it, will soon, and will re-look at parts.) Also considering his colleagues who died in that year or thereabouts. Too many, though I wonder if he got along with Reger- it's possible despite allegedly prickly personalities and conflicting musical views- odder things happen and I am very much not being sarcastic, I find myself curious. Gernsheim I think also died then or around then and I can imagine Gernsheim and Wetz getting along, perhaps... or Wetz and Draeseke who'd died a few years before. (Digression, sorry.) Eric 14:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, don’t think I thanked you for the Godard- fun piece!


to my surprise, Ferroud's quartet was recorded by the Quatuor Loewenguth on a Vox LP released 1965 (coupled with Milhaud's 3rd quartet.) Eric 20:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC) (the label Doremi started a "Quatuor Loewenguth" series in 2008 so this might be released on CD, even...)

I also noticed

that my parts don't agree as to number of bars. been meaning to fix that. ... I'm assuming you did though. Thank you very very much indeed!!

There isn't a rest-of yet, though there was supposed to be- died of excessive ambition (at that age and lack of practice I intended to write a 2-viola equivalent to pieces I hadn't even heard yet, like Reger's 3rd quartet - or moreso...?) ... I do have written parts to a few other quartet movements (mostly nontonal, I think, unless I wrote down the E major quintet movement I almost finished somewhere around- 1998?- instead of leaving it as a MIDI, composing it entirely in Finale on a computer and never even printing it out- which may be what I did. (And I no longer have Finale. LilyPond - haven't checked since I upgraded, but I think so :) ) Pity, since I rather liked that quintet ;)...) But as to something new... hrm. :) No, I did not take that as some sort of commission, just a prod... Eric 15:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Listened to the performance and recording now it's unblocked... - enjoyed that. Not the most stylistically consistent piece I could have written :) (not a consideration I understood or believed in, if I remember) but was very glad to hear it and played really well. Thanks again!! Eric 22:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC):

I liked the way the dissonances and rhythmic quirks slowly creep in after what sounds like the opening of a Beethovenian adagio. Also that the working out sounds logical, recognizably sonata form, even if the exact nature of the logic isn't entirely obvious! I'd be interested to try one of your "nontonal" pieces, even if for me atonal music is a bit of an oxymoron. Cheers Matesic 06:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Schoenberg, anyway, ever liked the term, for what that's worth- he wrote that atonal implied things not having to do with tones, so either silence or things not in the nature of music, and neither was true of his compositions (not moreso than in that of earlier composers). Nontonal or even pantonal seemed preferable. Still, atonal has stuck... even though its usual implication, "without key", is rarely strictly true even so; for most "atonal" compositions it's more true that many key centers are implied rapidly, I think, than that none are implied at all- something on that order... (and I always keep somewhere in mind the example of Roger Sessions' music, whose "tonal" D minor 2nd symphony is more dissonant and a harder listen than his serial, 12 tone, "atonal" -- but much quieter, and bird-song-filled, it seems to me- 3rd which nevertheless contrives to end with a unison cadence in D...) Anyhow, I'll have a look at typesetting or re-typesetting (I lost a lot when my hard drive crashed- twice :) ) some of my quartet movements and posting same- they're mostly from maybe around 1990 to 1995, I think. Appreciate your having a look no matter what of course, and cheers!! (And one suggestion to add to the ridiculously long list - Martin Levy of the I have no idea who this is, just found his 3rd? quartet in D minor on Sibley, school :) ?) Eric 23:19, 28 August 2011 (UTC):

At first glance looks very old-fashioned, but the tremolando on the second page..? Am currently employed with August Halm of similar date, also very old-fashioned and gemutlich, probably not much admired by Schoenberg. In spite of repeated exposure, practically nothing of the a/non/pan/polytonal/serial repertoire has ever stuck in my head except as a diffuse image. Someone must surely have gone through a piece of Webern's altering ALL the notes to see if anybody notices.Matesic 06:41, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

John Cage no doubt, but then he did with Satie also (Cheap Imitation). Much as I liked Babbitt as a person and composer I can see such an experiment being more successful with his music than with Webern's, where some people (even me) at least thinks one hears brief ideas returning and movements are constantly based on canon and variation... :) (and don't get me started on Ligeti and his attempts to base music on higher mathematics. Erm, no. Babbitt at least I enjoy and respect and admire; attempts to base something structural that's essentially inaudible- my teachers aren't the only ones who- about my early attempts too - had things to say about that!)

At least one symphony of Halm's is recorded- it's from a review of that that I first heard of him- probably(?) not the quartets or other chamber music yet though... good idea I think. Eric 10:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC) (also, heard the rest of the Wetz, which I'd had to delay listening to for a bit. Really good, that, really good.)

Found one of two movements I remember completing (usual string quartet lineup, not two-viola) in 1995... I think I have the other in full rather than just its latter half, though a first (wrote them in the wrong order, so these are II and III) was planned. Also, found an in-development version of Lilypond that works with my Mac. So- ready to typeset ;) Eric 19:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC):

Rightyho. I'm happy to make suggestions re the usual trivia that players grumble about - dynamics, complimentary accidentals etc. Percy Miles was absolutely meticulous about all that, obsessively so I can't help thinking. He must have spent a huge amount of time and care on those fair copies before sticking them in his bottom drawer. I finished notating II of the clarinet quintet so will soon be going back to the RAM for more. Matesic 06:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC):

I should be careful what I wish for - way too many complimentary accidentals in the cello! Also if there's some significance about which way the stems go I'm not perceiving it. Cheers. Matesic 07:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Not that I recall, indeed I may redo that, I think I just didn't really know how then and now just respected how I did the stems then :) (... stems from that? down... down...) . Sorry if that was confusing- the accidentals were following a rule sometimes used for especially chromatic music (if sometimes also forgotten just when needed- erm. not to get started.) that accidentals apply only to the notes, not to the whole measure. rest to come soon. as I look at it I see I should perhaps add more dynamics now, and maybe redo some of the phrasing in the other parts at least. Well, will see. Thanks for having a look! Eric 13:37, 30 August 2011 (UTC):

Are you sure about that? I can see the logic in having a "neutral" key signature, but I've never come across another example where every note is fully specified, including all the naturals which can surely be taken for granted. It actually makes it much harder to read. But then who am I to dictate how to write a string quartet in C major...? Matesic 17:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You're probably right- I'll go seek out the one quartet I am sure I have in my possession (... somewhere) that is an example (Schoenberg quartet 4) to see if even the natural notes are noted, or just the notes that are sharped, flatted. May have misinterpreted the "tradition" for 20th-century nontonal-ish works ;) (actually, the last chord, the measure before the cello's concluding E, is more like an F open fifth with seasoning, but I haven't put up all the parts yet, it's true. :) ) Eric 21:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC) (... that said... *rewrites the cello part and soon reposts, there are a few small changes I've made anyway though they're not all in yet. Still... *

Huré String Quartet

Thank you very much for recording this! I'm not aware that it's ever been recorded. Huré is one of my favorite neglected composers! I look forward to listening to the whole thing tomorrow! Andrewt 06:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC):

Andrew - If you're watching this page, very glad to get your feedback. Sorry the rendition and recording are both a bit rough but it's such an exciting piece I thought I'd put it out warts and all. Looking forward to tackling No2, described in Cobbett as atonal..?Matesic 10:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Hrm. I wouldn't describe quartet 2 as atonal myself :) but I can see where the author of that article, whoever it was, was coming from. Good stuff and thanks for! Eric 03:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC):

No indeed, but quite an original. With his opening material coming back in different guises, at the end like "visions fugitives", a bit cubist even? Cheers Matesic 07:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It was reminding me of something(s?), though no argument about the originality and quality. (Actually had to check whether cubism meant what I thought it meant, enough doubt of that lately ... and yes. Now I should try to get to hear other works of his, indeed.) Eric 02:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC):

I didn't so I may have got it wrong, but trying to depict something as seen from several different angles? Now I see Varese and Stravinsky are mentioned in that context, which I don't get, but Huré was in the right place at the right time.Matesic 07:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia (less reliable in these contexts, I suppose, but this seems right :) ) gives - taking apart/analyzing (the same thing, strictly speaking) and putting back together another way (if I understand...). Eric 15:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC) (und weiter - ):

Fair enough, although like the Impressionists I rather doubt that the guys who were practising Cubism ever got around to defining or agreeing upon what it was they were doing! Words seem even more inadequate in the visual arts than in music, so I'll shut up now.Matesic 06:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

No need to- though I would have said "just as" for myself ("If you could produce the same effect in music with words the music would become superfluous"- well, a near-quote, and of whom, I forget...) Eric 00:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


Hi, Since he died in 1968, you can't upload your sound files to the main server (located in Canada) as they are not PD there. I don't think the US server has audio capability yet, either. Had to delete unfortunately, Carolus 06:06, 8 November 2011 (UTC):

But say if I were to upload the score (p.1910), presumably there'd be no problem, so really the only obstacle is the lack of audio capability on the US server? Actually I'm still confused about how an audio recording infringes the copyright of a printed piece.Matesic 07:53, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, even the score and parts can only be uploaded to the PD-US server (that's why the icons look different) and doing so requires certain permissions that have to be requested from the admin (JDeperi) in charge of that website. I think performances and audio recordings come under "derivative works" clauses of copyright law but I am as usual furthest thing from an expert... Eric 05:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Asplmayer Symphony in C major

I have been listening to too much Michael Haydn on the CPO label. I've been playing around with dropping the Allegro vivace down to 60 or 70. As for the long silences in the continuo for the Maestoso, I've filled those in with some notes from the oboes and violins; since the purpose at this point is just to synchronize, it's acceptable to do this. But it also makes the Sturm und Drang element a little more obvious.
This I should upload later today. Alonso del Arte 16:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
P. S. What journal are you referring to? Alonso del Arte 17:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC):

The IMSLP Journal on the main page, currently used mainly for product placement it seems, but there are useful articles there too. One final suggestion - a bar of "till ready" notes or clicks so we'll know when to start? All the best Matesic 19:55, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's a very good point. Actually, let's make it two bars and include it before the Allegro vivace (in "post" we can always decide to completely elide that pause). I will upload it later today. Alonso del Arte 17:23, 17 December 2011 (UTC):

Works very well now, just a bit of guesswork required at some of the pauses. Violin 1 is done and uploaded and I'll add violin 2 and viola in due course. A couple of notes to query - I suspect the A in bar 88 of I should be a G (that's what I played), and I'm not sure whether the inconsistencies of the tune in III (e.g. compare bars 2 and 18) are intentional (I played what's written). Hope you soon get a few more takers! All the best Matesic 12:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I can't wait until the copyright reviewer gets to it so that I can hear it.
I think you're almost certainly right about the A in bar 88 of the first movement. Just on the basis of analogy to the following three measures, the correct reading is most likely B G G G B G and NOT B G G G B A. I'll correct the part tomorrow, but the score will have to wait until I finish redoing the figured bass now that I've figured out how to do it in Finale. Alonso del Arte 22:00, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Marteau 3

thank you :) Eric 06:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC):

Not his best, I think, but thought-provoking. I wonder what his personal position was in Germany in 1917 (whose "douleur")? Cheers Matesic 09:16, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

My guess (that it should not have taken me until today to come up with...)? His good friend Max Reger, who died in 1916, the year I think? thought? it was composed. He wrote several works for Marteau, I believe... Eric 17:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC) (maybe the violin concerto op.101, and the 9th violin sonata op.139 - I should check.):

Not too sure what Lamartine was going on about, but I don't think it's grief. Toothache? Marteau's finale reminds me of Smetana's From My Life (the "Viennese" trio too) - gypsy dancing to keep his mind off the pain? For me the four movements don't really make a coherent whole - the first rather Haydnesque and III also emotionally flat while II and IV lay it on too thick - the death throes of romanticism even? I think his second quartet would have made a better choice for the Yggdrasil, but top marks for enterprise. Matesic 09:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, Lamartine- why was I thinking Lamennais except that I think both I think had a Liszt connection (Lamartine particularly)... I really need to reread a score before writing on it (for proof of that q.v. a published preface or two of mind! ) As a listener all three quartets seem worth reviving anyway so thank you again - did you say whether you'd had a look at his string trio? ... Eric 13:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC) (the quiet, unfolding opening of quartet 3/I makes me think a little just now of maybe Beethoven op.29/I or Brahms op.18/I but - not sure.)


hrm, had forgotten (I think I did know at one point) that Orellana wrote a quartet as well as a trio. The trio looks interesting. Looking forward to hearing the Krehl (downloaded it, will listen very soon.) Thanks! Eric 01:22, 21 March 2012 (EDT):

Yes, the trio looks well written, although as I remember the quartet felt like just another Mozart pastiche. I guess you might say the same about Krehl vis-a-vis Brahms (the finale!) but I like his refusal to be constrained by the bar lines. Cheers Matesic 04:18, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

Brahms-ish without hemiolas is just not Brahms-ish enough... erm..- well, fails to capture some of the spirit, anyway. :D Hrm. (Ok, knew I forgot to do something while slowly waking up this morning- first movement sounds very good indeed and yes, lots of off-the-beat impetus and Brahmsian 3-against-2 , too :) Reminded of the few things I didn't forget from a very good seminar I took on Brahms' chamber music back around 1988.) Eric 10:10, 21 March 2012 (EDT)