User talk:P.davydov/archive1



Hello, P. Davydov: I gather from all of your very knowledgeable entires to our Tchaikovsky section that you are associated with Mr. Langston's Tchaikovsky-Research site. I was just checking to confirm that it's OK for Mr. Langston's edition of the Coronation March to be posted. Thanks very much for your additions, Carolus 15:35, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Hello Carolus. Yes, it is being reproduced with the editor's permission. Please feel free to confirm this by contacting the Tchaikovsky Research site if you need written confirmation from Mr Langston. P.davydov 16:38, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Hello again, My edition of Grove (ca.1980) states that Pavel Lamm's patronymic (middle) name was Alexandrovich. Are they incorrect in this? Thanks for all your lovely Tchaikovsky contributions, BTW. Carolus 15:05, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for that correction, Carolus. I was working from memory, which isn't always as reliable as it used to be! The Library of Congress Authorities catalog confirms that it should be Alexandrovich, and I'll make that change now on the the three pages in question. I'm hoping to fill in many of the remaining gaps in the IMSLP Tchaikovsky canon, if my scanner will stand up to the workload... P.davydov 15:32, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

You must have been reading my mind! Last night, after I created the publication template for the Tchaikovsky Complete Works, I was thinking that I really needed to do two versions to account for the name change to Muzyka and their abandonment of the plate number prefix and suffix latters. I come here today and discover - as if by magic - that it is already done! Thanks, and also a bolshoe spasivo for all the very fine and helpful work you've done on the complete works page. Carolus 14:44, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, Carolus, and I'm very glad to be able to contribute. Funnily enough I only made the new templates a few minutes ago! I've started updating the links to the existing complete edition scores, and there should be some new scans added soon... P.davydov 14:48, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Rococo Variations

Hello Davydov, I see you have changed the Rococo Variations to that not of Fitzenhagen. But actually that is the version that Fitzenhagen DID change. It is the version that is normally played (I have played it myself many times!!) But It is not the original one that Tchaikovsky wrote. The original version (that is not yet on this IMSLP) has a different order of the variations and there are other differences also. You may listen to it as it has been recorded recently by Miklos Pereny, Isserlis, and Julian Lloyd Webber. I think the order of the revised version is Theme,var.1,2,6,7,4,5,3,half of var.8.

The original version of the Rococo Variations, with eight variations instead of seven and with the variations in a different order. The published version was edited by the cellist Wilhelm Fitzenhagen, for whom Tchaikovsky wrote the variations. Fitzenhagen mucked around with them before publication, Mr. Isserlis said. He died not long after that, so maybe Tchaikovsky didn't want to fight with him about it. But I love that eighth variation. And now the big variation in C major is near the end, where it's much more effective. If by chance you do find the original version (I know it is hard to come up with the score and parts) Please do upload it!! Thanks - Generoso 16:43, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Hello Generoso. I've just had another look to make sure, but the score on the site really is Tchaikovsky's original version, not touched by Fitzenhagen. It's the same score that was published in volume 30B of Tchaikovsky's complete works (1956), edited by Viktor Kubatsky, which I have here with all the editor's notes. A lot of cellists were unhappy that they chose to publish the original version instead of Fitzenhagen's more familiar score. Fitzenhagen's version has the variations in the order (1 & 2) Tempo della Thema; (3) Andante sostenuto; (4) Andante grazioso; (5) Allegro moderato; (6) Andante; (7) Allegro vivo. Tchaikovsky has (1 & 2) Tempo della Thema; (3) Andante; (4) Allegro vivo); (5) Andante grazioso; (6) Allegro moderato; (7) Andante sostenuto; (8) Allegro moderato con anima. The last variation was dropped completely by Fitzenhagen! P.davydov 16:57, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
Yes, the last variation of Fitzenhagen's version is 'Allegro moderato con anima' as is the version posted here! (page 32 of the pdf posted here.) We shall get this figured out someday. Thanks for all your hard work. Generoso 17:06, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

I'll butt in here (since I posted the score originally - so long ago it seems). I think the editors of the Polnoe Sobranie Sochinenii did not include the Fitzenhagen revision. Tchaikovsky complained bitterly over what Fitzenhagen had done, and over the fact that Jurgenson went along and published what could really be termed an arrangement by Fitzenhagen rather than an edtion. Muzgiz might have issued the Fitzenhagen later as a supplement, but not as part of the regular complete works. Until fairly recently, the Fitzenhagen arrangement was the only one known in the west. Carolus 17:39, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

More Piano Transcriptions? Hello and thank you for your very helpful contributions. I wonder - are you planning to submit complete piano scores for Nutcracker and for Sleeping Beauty? That would be great. --Df 18:57, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Unfortunately I don't have the piano arrangements of those ballets in my collection. But I have a full score of The Sleeping Beauty which could go on eventually... P.davydov 19:27, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

I'll jump in here to say that I have the Siloti piano reduction for Sleeping Beauty (complete works) that I'll be uploading the the next couple of weeks. I also have one for Nutcracker but that will be a bit longer. Carolus 19:30, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Excellent. Thanks to both of you.--Df 12:14, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

Re: Capitalisations in titles

There are actually no guidelines at all for the capitalisation, and I had not seen Hamlet incidental music and the duet from Romeo and Juliet. I just thought it looked nicer because the other substantives in the title were capitalized too, that's all! Are there any arguments pro or contra? Regards, Peter talk 12:38, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

For English, the rule is: First and last words of a title are always capitalized, and most terms within a title are also capitalized excerpt for articles like a, an, or, the, with, etc. For example, the Coleridge-Taylor work uploaded last night, The Song of Hiawatha, Op.30 is a trilogy of three cantatas. The second of these is The Death of Minnehaha. Other languages - German in particular, appear to have different rules about the treatment of titles. (Sorry to take up place on you page yammering, P.davydov.) Carolus 15:11, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, Carolus. In this case the words aren't part of the original title, but are needed to distinguish between the symphonic ballad, opera and melodrama that are all separate works known by the title "The Voyevoda" (Tchaikovsky believed in recycling). My preference is for "The Voyevoda, opera, Op.78" rather than "The Voyevoda, Opera, Op.78", but I'm really just aiming for a single standard throughout. There are several different methods on the same page (for this and other works) and the inconsistency keeps me awake at nights :-) P.davydov 15:39, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

OK, for me no problem to change it back! A good time to make some guidelines about this. --Peter talk 18:24, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
Voyevoda is a particularly knotty example. The Chicago Manual of Style doesn't really address a case like this. I've seen the three works listed this way in OCLC:
  1. Voyevoda (opera), Op.3
  2. Voyevoda (incidental music), TH 22
  3. Voyevoda (symhonic ballad), Op.78
This is fairly consistent with what you are mentioning, P.davydov. Maybe you should ask the folks over at Tchaikovsky Reserach which way they would like to see it listed here. Rimsky-Korsakov also used the title Sadko for two different works as I recall. The Mugiz full scores of both Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty will be coming to IMSLP in the next few weeks, BTW. Carolus 19:09, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks again Carolus. I don't know how much of a consideration this might be, but I played around with slightly varying the titles to see if it affected the hits on "Romeo and Juliet" is another title applying to more than one of Tchaikovsky's works (the overture-fantasia and the duet scene), and the hits did vary considerably:

  • Romeo and Juliet + Tchaikovsky = 623 music CDs
  • Romeo and Juliet + overture + Tchaikovsky = 504 music CDs
  • Romeo and Juliet + fantasy overture + Tchaikovsky = 413 music CDs
  • Romeo and Juliet + overture fantasia + Tchaikovsky = 31 music CDs
  • Romeo and Juliet + duet + Tchaikovsky = 11 music CDs
  • Romeo and Juliet + TH 42 + Tchaikovsky = 0 music CDs

In this case, using Tchaikovsky's preferred title "Romeo and Juliet (overture-fantasia)" would eliminate 95% of the matches on Amazon, and including the catalogue number would eliminate the rest. While the purist in me would prefer the proper title, perhaps "Romeo and Juliet: overture (Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich)" would be an acceptable compromise. Presumably the same would apply to The Voyevoda, Hamlet, and The Nutcracker (ballet/suite). As you say, this is an issue for several composers, and if you or anyone else has other thoughts, they'd be very welcome. BTW, that's great news about Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty! P.davydov 12:35, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

It looks like we'll have to go with "Romeo and Juliet: overture (Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich)" since the alternative is not too good for keeping the server bills paid up to date! At any rate, I'd recommend that we just employ the simple title for the ballets, as in Swan Lake, Op.20 since there is already a separate opus designation for the suites (Swan Lake Suite, Op.20a, Sleeping Beauty Suite, Op.66a, and Nutcracker Suite, Op.71a). Since the ballets are so enormous, having separate work pages for the suites is probably a good idea. Swan Lake is already a big page and it will be getting even bigger with the addition of the 804-page Muzgiz score. If we put the suite at the bottom of the ballet page, nobody would see it! Carolus 01:54, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Agreed. I've now standardized the titles accordingly, putting within the brackets the minimum information required to distinguish between the works of the same name. All the instrumentation details and section headings for Tchaikovsky's works have also been added to IMDBP. Looking forward to seeing the Muzgiz ballets when your scanner has cooled down... :-) P.davydov 02:38, 24 July 2008 (EDT)


Hello P.davydov, Although there isn't anything officially posted yet, The "complete work" heading is above "full score" in the proposed hierarchy. "Complete Work" and "Excerpts" are the first level (2 equal signs, or maybe 3). Within "complete work" you would have "full score", "vocal score", "transcriptions", and "orchestra parts". "Excerpts" would have the same sub-headings (3 or 4 equal signs) but in some cases where there's a very popular excerpt like the Polovstian Dances from Borodin's opera "Kniaz Igor", the next level would designate the particular excerpt with the format variants (full score, vocal score, transcriptions, orchestra parts) going a level down. For many works, like the Tchaikovsky symphonies, there aren't really that many popular excerpts so the top level hierarchy (complete work, excerpts) is not even really necessary. Carolus 18:37, 16 August 2008 (EDT)


Hi, I took this version because it was the transliteration Sapelnikov used himself (Like Rachmaninoff), as I indeed read on Wikipedia. Feel free to change to the correct transliteration! --Peter talk 16:45, 8 January 2009 (EST)


Hi, P. Davydov. I thought we'd more or less come up with the heading system whereby excerpts from a large work such as an opera - like the Polonaise and Valse from Eugene Onegin - would appear beneath the material for the complete work, like the vocal score. Most of our pages are set up this way.

I thought we'd settled on the following levels of hierarchy:

Complete Work

Within Complete Work:

Full Scores
Vocal Scores
Orchestra Parts

Within Exceprts:

Name of Excerpt
Full Score
Orchestra Parts

Am I mistaken here? Perhaps we should continue the discussion of this issue on the forum if you think there are good reasons to do it another way.

Thanks, Carolus 16:35, 23 January 2009 (EST)

Hi again, I noticed you've been putting our hierarchy scheme into practice on Tchaikovsky pages. It looks pretty good, too. One question: in the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" heading, do you think things should be listed by instrumentation (e.g. Piano solo, Piano 4-hands, Kazoo quartet, etc.)? If so, what should be the order? Orchestral score order? We really didn't address this in our discussion over at the forum. Heretofore, if there's been an order of any kind, it has been a simple chronological one, with the composer's own transcriptions always at the top of the list - regardless of what instrument or ensemble the transcription was made for. I can certainly see the logic of grouping all the piano transcriptions together, string transcriptions together, etc. For example, on the Italian Capriccio, Op.45, Eduard Langer's transcription for 2 pianos appears above the composer's own transcritpion for piano 4-hands - which came earlier than Langer's. This implies an instrumentation-based order within the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" heading. The subheadings you've put in place look like a good idea, though it might be best to limit them to instrument instead of including the specific transcriber's name unless there happen to be multiple editions of a particular transcription. Thanks, Carolus 15:59, 30 January 2009 (EST)

I really think you should avoid using "For Voices and Piano" as "Vocal score", or even "Piano-vocal score" is far more commonly used - even though "For Voices and Piano" is technically correct. Also, in the area of operatic vocal scores, the vocal score was sometimes the actually first thing written so it's incorrect to call it a transcription. Possibly not so in Tchaikovsky's case, since he didn't always compose at the piano. See how thinking about this stuff can drive one crazy? :) Carolus 19:15, 30 January 2009 (EST)

Posted on my talk page as well: BTW, I think doing just Tchaikovsky according to the proposed hierarchy rules is a great idea. That way a large number of folks can see it and make suggestions about ease of use. I suppose we could use Lyle's preferred term "Piano-vocal score", which does seem to be gaining more ground in recent years. Most Publishers in the English-speaking world use "vocal score" for the common run-of-the-mill klavierauszug. The scores with vocal parts gathered in one or more systems are typically referred to as "chorus scores" (though these can include lines for vocal soloists as well). I have to admit that "Piano-vocal score" or "Vocal-piano score" is more precise than the simple "vocal score." I'll be adding some comments on the discussion page attached to your new hierarchy page. Carolus 18:06, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Dvorak Complete LInks

Hi. Thanks for all of your work on the Dvorak Supraphon complete. Could you please hold off on linking to pages that have the score, but not of this edition? It seems to be the standard (Vis. Brahms complete). This just drives me crazy on the Tchaikovsky page; it's incredibly more difficult to use. Thanks again.-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 10:38, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Sortable lists

Hi Davydov, I've enabled the leading zeroes for B. and opus numbers to be hidden from view, so that the Dvorak worklist remains completely sortable. Thus Opus 7 can be displayed as "7" while being properly sorted as "007": secretly à la James Bond. :)

The template to do this is called {{hs}} (probably named for "hide span", which is what it does - hides any text included in the parameter). I borrowed it from Wikipedia sometime ago, in order to do more sophisticated sorting of tables. You may find a use for it elsewhere in the table, for certain genre/key/title related sorting: the technique for numerical sorting which I've described on the list's discussion page is also applicable to alphabetical or category sorting. Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 19:24, 8 February 2009 (EST)

Oustanding Tchaikovsky sortable list, P. davydov! I corrected the ISBN for the Tchaikovsky Handbook. Carolus 17:02, 15 February 2009 (EST)


Just wanted to thank you for your cleanup work. It's very nice. -- Snailey Yell at me Email me 11:57, 22 February 2009 (EST)

Your User page

Sorry. I've made a real mess of things.-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 16:37, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Bizet: Carmen and L'Arlesienne Suites

Hi P. Davydov, As I understand it, Ernest Guiraud arranged both Carmen suites after Bizet's death - for both piano and orchestra. Fritz Hoffmann was only the editor for the Breitkopf edition (which appeared much later). There have been suites taken from Carmen arranged by others as well. For L'Arlesienne, Bizet arranged the first suite only. The second was arranged by Ernest Guiraud. As with Carmen, Fritz Hoffmann was only involved with the Breitkopf edition. Thanks, Carolus 18:56, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Redirects, etc.

Many commendations for your work cleaning up the site! I love it when I take a look at the list of double redirects to find it much shrunken!-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 20:09, 4 March 2009 (EST)

Thanks, and I'm glad to be able to help. Depending on how much time I have, I'll try to shrink the list a bit more over the next few days... P.davydov 05:30, 5 March 2009 (EST)
Thanks for assisting with the double redirects for Wagner; I'd noticed most of the ones for the individual works had been fixed by the time I'd gotten the ones for the category page resolved. There's a lot of cleanup after these composer moves, so I'm planning only one a day. Philip Legge @ © talk 19:33, 11 March 2009 (EDT)
Glad to be of help. It's very good of you to take on these composer naming issues, which will make things much easier for lots of IMSLP users — P.davydov 04:23, 12 March 2009 (EDT)


Hello, I don't know if you noticed, but Musicforband actually uploaded some files (he just did it wrong). Not sure if they should be submitted or deleted. --Leonard Vertighel 05:57, 6 March 2009 (EST)

Found an old forum thread which I had opened myself but completely forgotten :) I guess deleting them is OK. By the way, why are you creating empty pages asking for them to be deleted? (According to the "history", the page didn't exist prior to your edit.....) --Leonard Vertighel 07:45, 6 March 2009 (EST)

You are right, it's another one of those annoying URL rewriting bugs. I've notified Feldmahler. --Leonard Vertighel 08:20, 6 March 2009 (EST)

Vocal Scores - Language hierarchy

Hi, I've been wondering about this. Do you think we should have the original language listed first, or just do the languages in alpha order. I'm inclined to go with original first and alpha after that, personally. The new hierarchy system seems to be holding up nicely even for the Wagner operas, so congratulations are in order. Carolus 18:35, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Thanks! All 500+ operas should now be using the new heirarchy, so that leaves just another 14,000 or so pages :-) But as far as vocal scores are concerned, if the original language is given in parallel with the translation (which is normally the case), then I've placed the original first in the heading, e.g. the original "German", would always come before "German / English", "German / Russian", etc. But there are a minority of cases where the translation is in a single language, and here the original "German" could end up after a monoglot "English" translation. Where that happens, I'd agree that it's reasonable to put the original language first. The important thing is that the headings are correct and will be "readable" by Wikibots, so that one day people might be able to search for all scores in a particular language, for instance — P.davydov 04:16, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

Another question: I've downloaded Boris Jurgenson's Tchaikovsky Thematic Catalogue, which is available at Google. As soon as I've gotten rid of all the logos, etc. it can be uploaded. The question is: where? It would be nice to have links to it on both the Tchaikovsky page and the Jurgenson page. Carolus 19:01, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

This has actually happened with another composer, whose name I forget. In that case, it was just made as a work titled "Catalogue of the complete works." or something like it.-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 20:05, 11 March 2009 (EDT)
And also see what's been done with Pictures at an Exhibition for Mussorgsky/Ravel. In this Case I would probably make it as a Jurgenson work, categorized under Tchaikovsky too.-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 20:57, 11 March 2009 (EDT)
I'd agree with snailey that it should go on a page for "Jurgenson, Boris Petrovich", with a category link to "Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich". I'm sure that we could improve the way we currently handle these sorts of situations, as well as collaborative works, editions and arrangements that are the work of two people or more. There are several possible approaches (some of which are already being used), and I'll try to put together some notes for discussion over the next few weeks, if that might be helpful? — P.davydov 04:16, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

That would be very helpful, actually. There are a number of collections from the Ditson Musicians' Library series which I've downloaded from Google. One approach I've seen is to list the collection under the name of the collection's editor or compiler. The individual items from it could then be extracted and put in under their respective composers. BTW, Mr. Irgmaier previously requested that all of his works here should be deleted, which I am gradually doing. Carolus 16:55, 12 March 2009 (EDT)


Thought you might want to have a look at This category:).-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 20:41, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

Hi Snailey. I tried my best yesterday with Charles Warren and Ernest Zoeller, but couldn't find out anything more about them. The rest of the composers from T to Z are done though, with full dates of birth/death now where they're known, new Wikipedia links, and alternate spellings (which I found out about from your example with Manuel Ponce!). I'll work my way slowly through the other composers as time permits... — P.davydov 04:36, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Question about Captchas

Hi Davydov. Just wanted to ask if you get a captcha when you edit a page or submit a file. This is just to make sure everything is going as it is supposed to (you should not get a captcha). Thanks! --Feldmahler2 12:57, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Hi Feldmahler. I've only been getting the Captcha when I edit an external URL on one of the pages. But that seemed to stop happening a couple of hours ago, after the site froze for around a minute. I can now edit pages OK, but with no Captchas at all — P.davydov 13:04, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
Wonderful! Everything is going as it should then :-) (New users will now get captchas on everything including normal editing, while seasoned users won't get any.) --Feldmahler2 13:14, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Carl Stamitz

So apparently did en-Wikipedia's editors (still need to remove it from there. I'm going to assume that the year anyway was still 1745... not necess. true either. This issue does arise with Beethoven and has been a subject of discussion, I gather, in the literature there - moreso, of course. At least as I could judge from the preface to the translation I read of Ries/Wegeler's Reminiscences.) Thanks!Eric 05:37, 20 March 2009 (EDT)


I'm probably being parochially pro-modern, but I've seen so many variant spellings for 19th-century names and words used in contemporary press and advertisements I didn't think one could catch them all in a practical way... (of course, Mr. Reissiger is not Kotzelutchhhh (gesundheit.)!) Eric 18:55, 22 March 2009 (EDT)


Connaissiez vous Arthur ? Dou you knew Arthur ?

Non, je ne connais pas un Arthur — P.davydov 10:29, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Excusez-moi. J'ai cru que vous étiez intervenu sur la fiche de Arthur Petronio et je me demandais si vous le connaissiez. J'ai d'autres oeuvres de lui et je ne sais trop que faire.. (Je ne sais pas signer et dater ce que j'écris.) — Coulon 15:55, 27March 2009 (.?)

Rhené-Baton Redirect

P. davydov, since you seem to be adept with composer redirects of late, would you mind assisting me with this one Category:Baton, Rhené Emmanuel? It needs to be redirected to Rhené-Baton but I really don't know how to use the redirect template well, and Leonard suggested you could help. Thanks. Daphnis 15:18, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

Rimsky - Complete Works

Just a word of thanks for setting this up - it was getting to the point it was needed, and much appreciated in this quarter at least! Regards, Carolus 23:35, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I'm glad to have been able to help. It was in response to Snailey's request on the Forum yesterday, and I just happened to have a spare couple of hours :-) There are still a few links need adding to work pages, but I'll leave that to the Rimsky experts... — P.davydov 07:17, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
Mostly done. Sorry to seem demanding... :)-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 21:43, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Thought you might be interested in this

Category talk:Wihtol, Joseph-- Snailey Yell at me Email me 16:57, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

Hi Snailey. I redirected the old Witohl pages yesterday and left a note on the Category talk:Vītols, Jāzeps page. The old Witohl talk page is still there (without my note), because it wouldn't overwrite the existing Vītols talk page. The two talk pages seem to be identical apart from my note (!) — P.davydov 12:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

Giovanni Bottesini

Hi P.davydov, I'm kind of interested where the information about the alternate name Gaetano comes from. I always thought I was pretty well informed about the guy, but this bit is a real surprise. Thx, --Rainer Lewalter 21:15, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Hi Rainer. I've no specialist knowledge about Bottesini, and have just been checking IMSLP's composer information against various references sources. 'Gaetono' is one of the alternative names listed by the Library of Congress in their name authorities file. Unfortunately they don't indicate the source where they encountered this variant (which they often do in other cases), but the accent on the 'e' of 'Gaetono' suggests that it could have been a Russian source — P.davydov 03:41, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

Abril Tirado

Hello, P:Davydov. There is something wrong naming Tirado only. Octavio Santa Cruz in his book "La Guitarra en el Perú" said his father was "Pedro Abril y Tirado" died on 18-April-1826. His mother was "María del Carmen Abril" died 5-May-1833 and married with "Pedro Jimenez Rondón". He was a "natural son" or "extra marriage son" (I don't know the exact word in english = hijo natural o extra matrimonial)That's why first he named himself Pedro Jimenez (or Ximenes) and later, perhaps when his real father dies take his two last names. And: is a spanish tradition use two last names (Cervantes Saavedra, Miguel is not "Miguel Saavedra", or García Lorca, Federico is not "Federico Lorca", or Goya y Lucientes,Francisco is not "Francisco Lucientes" and so on. English rules and traditions are differents in spanish and ex spain countries. Nestor Guestrin Musicadelsur

Hi P.Davydov As you say, I think is better "Abril Tirado, Pedro" or "Pedro Abril Tirado" or "Abril Tirado, Pedro X." or "Pedro X. Abril Tirado". For my spanish (or southamerican) eyes this composer has a double last name "Abril Tirado". If not, I see as wrong. Mother and father were "Abril"! Nestor Guestrin Musicadelsur

Kœchlin's 10 Little Easy Pieces

Hello P.davydov! I see that you've changed the opus number of this work from 61b to 61c based on information from Grove. I have Kœchlin's complete catalogue here, which I borrowed from a friend who was given it by Kœchlin's nephew. Since it was prepared and published by Kœchlin's own family I assume it is fairly reliable. It lists Op.61c as "64 Exercises faciles à deux parties" (64 Easy Two-Part Exercises), and 61b as "Dix petites pièces faciles (piano)"Ten Easy Little Pieces (piano). So I'm wondering what opus number Grove has given these 64 exercises. I can send you a scan of the relevant page from Kœchlin's catalogue if you'd like to see it. I typed the whole catalogue out by hand in December when I created the article "List of Compositions by Charles Kœchlin". I will copy and paste the relevant Op.61 numbers.

Op.61(A) – Twelve Little Pieces (for piano), 1919-1920 Op.61(B) – Twelve Little Easy Pieces (for piano), 1919-1920 Op.61(C) – 64 Easy Two-Part Exercises for Beginners (for piano), 1919-1920 Op.61(D) – Ecole du jeu lié (exercises for piano), 1919-1920

Best wishes. --Siebenkas 05:35, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

I had to jump in here. Regarding this catalogue, does it contain publication dates? When was it published? I'd love to have a copy of a Kœchlin catalogue but didn't know a complete one existed.Daphnis 08:56, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Hello Daphnis! Do you mean publication dates of the works? It has composition dates for all of the works, plus the date and location of first performance for many of them. As for publication, it only lists the name of the publisher, with no date, mostly Salabert and Eschig, some of the early works were published at Sénart, and then there are a number of other publisher names appearing here and there. Although the catalogue is printed in book form, I'm not sure if it was ever available for sale. It has no price on it, or any ISBN number. On the reverse of the title page it only says "Le présent catalogue est en dépôt légal chez: Max Eschig & Cie, 48 rue de Rome, 75008 Paris". And on the second to last page it says "Réalisation et impression LACER - RAMBAULT & GUIOT, Dépot légal n°794, 3e trimestre 1975, Paris". As I mentioned above, a friend of mine here in Paris is a friend of Kœchlin's nephew (that's what she calls him although he must be a great nephew). I could ask her to ask him how someone could get a copy of the catalogue. She said he's on something of a mission to promote Kœchlin, so I'm sure he'd be happy to hear someone is taking an interest... It's a pretty interesting document. In the pages before the actual catalogue begins, there is an introduction by Henri Sauguet, then a nine-page article about Kœchlin by Roger Delage, another article about Kœchlin's life written in English by Robert Francis Nicholas Orledge, then twelve pages of extracts from articles about Kœchlin in the press. It also includes a list of didactic works, a list of articles written by Kœchlin published in the press, and a discography listing recordings from the 30's to the 70's. There is also a list of works that for some reason do not appear in the official catalogue (which I've been meaning to add to the "List of Compositions" page - these account for the missing opus numbers)... Anyway if you'd really like to just see the catalogue, when I have the time I could scan it and send you a pdf. The actual list of works, including the out-of-catalogue works, is only about 50 pages. Thanks for your interest! (Sorry for taking up so much space on your page P.davydov. I'll put it on Daphnis's talk page too in case you don't want all of this here.) --Siebenkas 10:49, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Well, the entire reason I ask is because, as you may or may not know, I'm the somewhat self-appointed curator of French composers on the site having completed (or very nearly) the work catalogues of most major composers (including recently Florent Schmitt with Saint-Saëns in-progress). I had in mind at some point to do Kœchlin, but since his output was so massive and quite a large number of pieces were only published in the last 30 years, I was hoping for a catalog d'œuvre to guide me along to the works which are eligible. So anything you have that could help would be fantastic! The sooner I have it the sooner I can start gathering up his works from libraries and collectors, hopefully leading to a complete collection of his public domain works in Canada. Daphnis 10:59, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Hello Siebenkas (and Daphins!)

Grove's on-line work list has the Op.61 pieces in a different order, and with different dates:

  • 61a = 64 exercices faciles, pf, 1919–20 (1928)
  • 61b = L’école du jeu lié, pf, 1919–20 (1928)
  • 61c = 10 petites pièces faciles, pf, 1915–16, 1919–20 (1921)
  • 61d = 12 petites pièces, pf, 1915–16, 1919–20 (1921)

I'm confused  :-) — P.davydov 16:59, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Hierarchy question

Hello P. davydov, As this site grows more and more, I appreciate the hierarchy scheme you worked on more and more. There's one item we didn't really address that I'd like you opinion on: Cadenzas to various concerti, often published separately. A case can be made that these are arrangements, since they typically employ themes and motifs from the concerto. Also, a case could be made that they should go under the "Parts" section, since they apply only to the solo part.

On another, somewhat related item, Notenschreiber has brought up the issue of how we should handle the titling of what seems to be millions of 18th century works originally entitled something like Sonate in La minore per Flauto Traverso (o Voilino, o Oboe) e Basso Continuo. (see my talk page) My memory (which may be wrong) is that the preferred English format for such generic titles would be Sonata for Flute and Continuo in A minor while Notenschreiber prefers the use of the abbreviation "B.c.", which I think is more common in the German-speaking world. As more of these works appear, I see the need to have some sort of system for dealing with the issue. Thanks, Carolus 18:10, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Hi Carolus. As far aa cadenzas are copcerned, my first thought is that "Arrangements and Transcriptions" would be the appropriate heading, as it would seem illogical to have something interpolated by a different composer among the "Parts" for the rest of the work.
I'd also agree with your interpretations of the generic titles, i.e. Form/instrument(s)/key, avoiding the use of abbreviations (could "B.c." be misunderstood as 'Bass clarinet'?), and alternative instrumentation ("Flute and Continuo" instead of "Flute (or Violin, or Glockenspiel) and Continuo (or Double Bass, or Euphonimum)", etc.
Although I've been occupied with other things recently that have taken me away from IMSLP, I have been giving a lot of thought as to how work titles might be improved to make them more useful and less ambiguous in some cases, and avoid too many unhelpful inconsistencies. When I've formulated these thoughts a little more, I might get back to you, if that's OK? — P.davydov 01:18, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

By all means! As I said earlier, this site's rampant growth has made the need for this type of thing increasingly apparent. Your obvious expertise and experience is much appreciated. I'll go ahead and start moving the Cadenzas into the Arrangements and Transcriptions section. There are a few pages where they occupy their own top-level (3 equal-signs) hierarchy. Thanks, Carolus 01:24, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

EU Copyright for American Works in US public domain

Under the EU's Rule of the Shorter term, US works which are public domain are not protected in the EU unless a bilateral treaty somehow trumps the EU copyright directive. A Schirmer collection published before 1923 should be tagged C for EU status, unless it's a rare case of something that was issued jointly by Schirmer and a European publisher. Carolus 18:29, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Understood. I was a little more worried about the post-1923 works edited by Bonnet in the same series, whose copyright was likely to have been renewed by Schirmer, so to be on the safe side I marked them V/U/N until the renewals can be checked — P.davydov 03:33, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Yes, that Bonnet collection is a very strange case. I'm going to call Sibley next week about it. If Schirmer renewed the copyright, which is likely but not guaranteed, it's quite illegal for Sibley to post it. It's also fairly heavily edited, so one cannot really make a case for it being 'urtext' in the EU. We'll leave it as you've tagged it for now. Thanks, Carolus 03:37, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Bach: Mass in B-minor

Hi, Since you're our resident guru on name/title authorities, etc. I was wondering if we should be using the German Messe h-moll we have at present since it's not the actual formal title given by Bach anyway (it was in Latin as I recall) instead of the generic English Mass in B-minor. The whole Bach section is going to ultimately need some serious reorganization anyway, so now is a good time to start thinking about it. Thanks, Carolus 19:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


You might want to have a look at the titles over there. There appear to be a lot of "Offerings for the Xth Sunday in Advent" type of thing (in Latin of course). It looks like he's going to be uploading everything in the DTÖ. Carolus 18:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Comparing the titles there with the complete worklist in Grove shows alarming little in common. Some are known by their incipits, and others just by generic names. Unless he includes the "K" (or "E") number in the titles then it's going to be impossible to positively identify the pieces... — P.davydov 19:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)