| See here ⟨User:Fynnjamin⟩ |
[#35594] |
Hi Fynnjamin
See this post here, I believe with the melody upload from the NBA I did, the melody was composed on separate years by two different people, so I believe the file I uploaded on those two pages should be correct then, or should they be on one page instead? The melody was composed in 1653 and 1661 on separate years.
Posted at 04:01, 24 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator)
Edited at 04:02, 24 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator) |
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"Geistlich" means "spiritually" in German so its kind of vague what that means exactly.
| Posted at 04:03, 24 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator) |
| To be honest, I think posting these chorale melodies separately is problematic.
a) They weren't composed in separate years, the Bach-Ausgabe book simply presents two versions of the chorale melody, usually the earliest they could find compared with the version Bach used, or the closest to it.
b) You have stated the instrumentation is for 4 voices - this cannot be known without going to check the source that is given (the original instrumentation is not given in the Bach-Ausgabe). Many of these chorales were first published as melody only, or voice (congregation unison) and continuo, or organ alone (etc).
c) in the case of "Ach was soll ich Suender machen", the source attribution Weltlich, Altdorf 1653 denotes a collection of secular songs where this melody first appeared (with a different text, which thus has implications for its separate IMSLP page under Anonymous. This is that source if you want to search it - notice it is for voice and continuo), and that Johann Flittner was the first to set it to a religious text as a chorale in 1661.
d) On some pages it wasn't clear at first (until the file is opened) that the uploaded score is melody only. I haven't checked to see whether this has been rectified
e) It's extra clutter. The problem grows exponentially if we are to apply this approach to other chorale collections.
These are just my thoughts - I think it's still feasible to go through the sources for the Bach-Ausgabe Choralmelodien (to check the instrumentation), it's just extra work. Hence the cleanup tag.
| Posted at 08:15, 26 September 2023 by Fynnjamin |
| I looked at the original version of the melody of Ach, was soll ich Sünder machen, as given in "Altdorf 1653", and there are significant differences. Would still need to check the Flittner source for the instrumentation, but I think certainly for this melody only one page is necessary for the Bach-Ausgabe file, that is to say the page under Flittner. To justify having a separate page for the 1653 source, that version would need to be uploaded. It is song No.28 (see the link above), page 376 of the scan; the title is "Silvius von seiner Rosette", first line "Silvius gieng durch die Matten".
Posted at 08:30, 27 September 2023 by Fynnjamin
Edited at 13:26, 27 September 2023 by Fynnjamin |
| Ok I took a look at the source above when I had some time now and the melody doesn't match the NBA written chorale/melody, is the "Silvius gieng durch die Matten" the original text for "Ach, was soll ich Sünder machen" and that Flittner reworte the text for the latter?
I'll merge the Anonymous page with the Flittner page for now and if you manage to find the source edition or manuscript, then remake the page again. And I also changed the instrumentation to voice only (as I suspect most melodies start out as being of course).
Posted at 15:43, 30 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator)
Edited at 15:45, 30 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator) |
| The Flittner NBA setting could also be an arrangement for 2 voices as written in the file, so as you have with the source above, we would just need the melody pages with just the one voice.
| Posted at 15:52, 30 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator) |
| Great. Yes - as you can see, the "Silvius" melody is not exactly the same, though it is quite clearly the model for Flittner's version (according to NBA). When I have time, I could go through the other sources of the NBA chorales. These aren't arrangements for 2 voices however, but different versions of the melody put side by side for comparison (an early source compared with the melody as Bach used it).
| Posted at 22:45, 30 September 2023 by Fynnjamin |
| I would appreciate your help (and checking over the instrumentation, merging workpages, and tagging them, this is why I don't personally tag workpages because of this kind of issue you brought up, I am not the greatest at making sure always the files are in the correct place but I have tried to get better over time, which is why I would rather have some experts help me on these kinds of things since this can get difficult to track down the sources). If you refer to the master file of the Die Choralmelodien page, that is where all the other chorales are listed in a single file of the sub-collection from the larger volume. I imagine all of the other pages will have to be changed to just "voice" most likely.
| Posted at 23:05, 30 September 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator) |
| Great. Yes - as you can see, the "Silvius" melody is not exactly the same, though it is quite clearly the model for Flittner's version (according to NBA). When I have time, I could go through the other sources of the NBA chorales. These aren't arrangements for 2 voices however, but different versions of the melody put side by side for comparison (an early source compared with the melody as Bach used it).
| Posted at 17:11, 25 October 2023 by Fynnjamin |
| Uh, I think you recopied your previous reply above?
| Posted at 17:15, 25 October 2023 by Sallen112 (administrator) |
| Oh, that's odd, I think it was a tab I had open and when I refreshed the page it re-sent it for some reason. I will get around to looking at this in a few weeks when I have more time.
| Posted at 23:45, 25 October 2023 by Fynnjamin |
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