Talk:Jerusalem (Parry, Charles Hubert Hastings)

The oft sung typographical error, 'among *those* dark...' has been corrected to 'among *these* dark...' using Adobe Photoshop.

That’s because the “error” was intentional rather than typographical, and was done to change the emphasis of Blake’s poem.
I agree. Parry conducted the work in public as late as 1918, yet there is no evidence that he amended the text or the title. I have performed this piece many times in England, my singers have always sung "those" without comment, and I would not dream of asking them to sing "these"! Nightjar 06:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Nightjar, I am not sure what you are agreeing with here. Either Parry or the publishers must have been responsible for a change of Blake's 'these' to 'those', but there is no reason given - no footnote in the score and no citation in the above post as evidence. Havergal Brian states that not a line was changed, so in the absence of another citation my conclusion was that the error was typographical, though it could have been in the manuscript. Perhaps the ladies for whom it was composed and the schools that adopted it did not consider themselves part of the dark satanic mills of church and state! We can only speculate in the absence of evidence. New reprints have honoured Blake's 'these', and when I used this copy in performance I saw no good reason to dishonour Blake either, hence the correction - and this is the scan I shared here. I also have an arrangement by Gordon Jacob, just a piano part with words above the right hand stave. A footnote reads, 'By kind permission of the publishers, Messrs. J. Curwen & Sons...', and the end of the first verse is 'Among these...' so presumably this was corrected by Gordon Jacob (owing to his longevity I cannot upload this). - Jim
Jerusalem is the popular title of this work, but not Parry's original title. See external link. The orchestral score is an arrangement by Elgar, not Parry, so removing that from tags where we do not deal with arrangements however popular. (Schissel)
Parry orchestrated Jerusalem before Elgar's version; it was published by J. Curwen & Sons (who published this VS) and is scored for 2222/4230/timp/str.
I am sceptical of your first sentence because you provide no citation from a reliable musicological source for an intentional change of 'these' to 'those', nor a good reason for doing so. For demonstrative adverb and pronoun to agree, the previous line would also need to be changed to, 'And was Jerusalem builded there'. Also, Havergal Brian tells us, '... not a line is changed'. See external link 'Musical Opinion'. More recent published copies have been corrected to 'these'.
Jerusalem is the published title and so should be considered the 'actual title' of the work as distinct from Blake's text alone (which is only part of the preface to Milton).
Hrm? My first sentence was "Jerusalem is the popular"... - so I am a mite confused (for which statement I admit I cannot provide any documentation - well, ok, unusually confused. ;) ). but fair enough, especially since I am not sure enough of my cite's sources (etc.). (Schissel)
Sorry, I appear to have been addressing two different people.
--> [Jerusalem is the published title ....] The original name of this work, as published and performed, was, "And did those feet in ancient time." The copyright was registered under that name in 1916. See U.S. Copyright Office, Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 3, Volume 11, Issue 2 (last half of 1916), at p.701. The song was then publicly performed under that name in London, e.g., by the Royal Choral Society at Albert Hall on December 23, 1916: "Dering's 'Whom saw ye, O Shepherds,' Ravenscroft's 'Remember God's goodnesse,' Parry's ' When icicles hang,' and his ' And did those feet in ancient time,' were interspersed with well-known carol tunes that have clung to the season." The Musical Times, v. 58, no. 888 (Feb. 1, 1917), p.81. <--
--> The "Jerusalem" title came sometime after 1916. For example, in the score currently available on IMSLP (the Curwen vocal score), the first page of the music (p.3 of the pdf), which states "copyright 1916", gives the title as only, "And did those feet in ancient time." The cover page (p.1 of the pdf) states that the title is Jerusalem, but there is a 1940s copyright renewal notice on that cover, so this was apparently a newly type-set page. <--
Yes, it was known by the title on the first page of 'the "music"' after Walford Davies had Curwen print the first edition. I was referring to the 'actual title' of this copy (and subsequent publications) since your first post seemed to question whether it should be placed under 'J' on the Parry page. Sorry if my reply was unclear. Parry was undecided what to call the work and did not like 'Jerusalem'. 'Preface to Milton' was an option also considered though these stanzas are just part of it. - Jim
(Sigh) This is why I sign my comments, thoughts, parenthetical remarks and general irrelevancies. (Am also thinking this whole discussion might profitably be moved to the discussion page. Anyhow, that last paragiraffe, starting "[Jerusalem is the published title..] through newly type-set page, I think, was contributed by Olmsted, not me, I do believe, and for what it's worth. And that was Olmsted's first post (here), I think, so ... ?? (Schissel)
Sorry. Schissel is correct. I've now gone back and marked my comments with arrows ( --> ). Olmsted 01:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)