User talk:Tolentino


Otto Olsson (1879-1964) is not public domain in Canada, and the item of his you uploaded had to be deleted. Keep in mind that anything written by composers (or arrangers) who died after 1959 cannot be posted here as Canada has a copyright term of life-plus-50 years. Thanks, Carolus 14:34, 30 June 2009 (EDT) (IMSLP Copyright Admin)

Okay, I did not know that you were so restricted with respect to Canada, because the work I uploaded was published in 1910 (and the first publication was actually earlier), so I thought that it was Public Domain at least in the United States. Best wishes, --Tolentino 15:44, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
By the way, because I am not able to shift one work to another place, could you be so kind to add the Op.-number in Choralvorspiel_zu_'Meine_Hoffnung_steht_auf_Gott'_(Claußnitzer,_Hermann_Paul) where I unfortunately forgot to mention it? Thank you, --Tolentino 15:47, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
And I think that the redir Vesperklänge, Op.14 No.5 (Elgar, Edward) could be deleted, because it is not needed any more. What should I write into the article in order to show that it should be considered to be deleted? --Tolentino 15:54, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Unfortunately, we can't serve as a perfect mirror for Sibley, as there are works which are free in the USA which are not yet so in Canada. I'll add the opus number, no problem. BTW, wherever possible, we use the title for the complete opus in question, though that may understandably not be possible in the case of some of the more obscure composers in a collection like the one you've been posting. The redirect will be in place for while. They periodically are deleted after the link on the main page is no longer there. Carolus 16:08, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Meanwhile I finished working on the book "Der moderne Organist", and there are a few numbers from which I do not know how to work with. This concerns No. 13, 21, 29, 37 (which seem already covered by a better version here) and No.20 (because it seems that this is only the beginning of the fantasy and I do not know whether one should upload only a partial work). Could you have a look what to do with these numbers? Best wishes, --Tolentino 16:12, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

OK, I'll let you know as soon as I go over to Sibley and have a look. Carolus 16:21, 30 June 2009 (EDT) I see what you mean. If you like, it would be fine to upload the entire collection under Striegler as composer (even though he's actually the compiler and editor), as long as the Olsson piece is omitted. I looked all over for Striegler's dates and came up blank. I think Olsson was the only one in the collection who died after 1959. Thanks, Carolus 16:29, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

I don't think that it is necessary to upload the entire collection, because the only missing piece is No.20 which seems (up to my opinion) not worthable in this condition (because of my reasons above). Best wishes, --Tolentino 16:46, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

There is another thing that should be corrected. I found the description Complete Organ Works (Brosig, Moritz), but "Ausgewählte Orgelwerke" means not complete, it is only a collection of some Organ Works. And if I compare this with [1] I think that the 6th volume (by Karl Hoppe) is missing. --Tolentino 16:53, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for finding that. Your quite correct, Ausgewählte means selected, as I recall. Otherwise, they would have used Sammtliche Orgelwerke. Carolus 17:23, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Yes, you are right: Complete Organ Works mean "Sämtliche Orgelwerke" in German, and "Ausgewählte Orgelwerke" are "Selected Organ Works".
And I saw another thing that I cannot correct, because I have no permission to change an article's name: The Op. number is missing in Organ_Sonata_No.7_(Fährmann,_Hans) . --Tolentino 01:13, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

You probably haven't been posting things here long enough to have the 'move page' privileges yet, but that is how a work-page name is changed. Simply use the 'move page' link at the top. Thanks for all of the nice additions! Carolus 01:51, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Could you please be so kind to move Complete_Organ_Works_(Litzau,_Johannes_Barend) into "Organ Works" (or "Selected Organ Works")? This collection is definitely not complete. Best wishes, --Tolentino 04:36, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
And in Jubelfest-Präludium_'Lobe,_den_Herren,_den_mächtigen_König_der_Ehren!',_Op.56_(Drath,_Theodor) I made a mistake: One must delete the "," between "Lobe" and "den Herren". --Tolentino 04:52, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
Another mistake by myself: In Vom Himmel Hoch, Op.36 No.1 (Wilhelm, Rust) the "Hoch" has to be written as "hoch". --Tolentino 06:53, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
And the page Canon_in_Gegenbewegung_über_'Allein_Gott_in_der_Höh'_sei_Ehr''_(Lux,_Friedrich) should be deleted. --Tolentino 07:55, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
Done. Thanks for uploading all of these individuallyu and tirelessly! No problems at all. And you should be able to move in about 5 more days.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 08:54, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

BTW, the composer's name (he was also an editor for the Bach-Gesellschaft) is Wilhelm Rust, not Rust Wilhelm. Carolus 15:52, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

UUups, my mistake. Thank you very much for correcting this! --Tolentino 02:12, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
I have a question concering Concertstück_in_A_major_(Gottschalg,_Alexander_Wilhelm). There stands "Liszt-Gottschalg" as composers, but on the one hand I do not know Liszt's relation to this work and on the other hand I do not know how one can contribute a work to two composers as a common work. If you have a better solution, please be so free to do so. --Tolentino 02:48, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Another problem was Category:Klitzsch,_Karl_Emanuel. Karl Emanual Klitzsch's works were printed with his pseudonyme "Emanuel Kronach". I added the work under his real name. But I do not know whether one should write a hint about his pseudonyme and vice versa whether one should add a composer category with Kronach. --Tolentino 03:31, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
And I am not sure whether the second prename in Category:Brandt, G. Auguste is really the French "Auguste" (as I found in the internet) or perhaps the German "August" (and I found nowhere his first prename). --Tolentino 03:33, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Hi again, and thanks for the concerns. The best place to make these kind of requests is the [ forums]. Good luck.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 09:03, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

There are another two things:

  • I made a mistake in Postlude,_Op.134_No.6_(Merkel,_Gustav_Adolf) where I uploaded the wrong piece. After I tried to correct it we have now three versions. Two of them (especially the one with the wrong composer) have to be removed.
  • In the Category of Lemmens I found the piece "Finale" which is in fact the last piece of his Organ School. Therefore, as I think, it should be moved to the Organ School as a second version. Best wishes, --Tolentino 09:55, 5 July 2009 (EDT)


And Test page (Anonymous) should moved to a page with a proper name. --Tolentino 12:13, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Hi again, and thanks for the concerns. The best place to make these kind of requests is the forums. Good luck.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 09:03, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Hello, You have been very busy! My answers are listed below:

  1. Since it's not an arrangement of a Liszt piece, but an item composed by Gottschalg based on a some theme or motive taken from Liszt, it should appear under Gottschalg only.
  2. For Klitzsch, there's a way you can add his pseudonym to the composer category page. To see how it's done look at the category page for a Russian composer where there are multiple transliterations.
  3. One of my reference books gives Brandt's name as August (German form). We'll leave as is for now and check LOC name authorities.
  4. I'll fix the Merkel, no big deal.
  5. Thanks for the info on Lemmens
  6. Again, fixing these should be no problems. I'll also look up some things at LOC name/title authorities to find the larger works some of the individual numbers are taken from
  7. You're off to a great start. I'm confident you'll be a first-rate contributor in no time at all.
  8. I believe the test page is there as an example for new contributors.

Sibley's method of publisher citation is a little different than what we use here (ideally). A date is given - without parens - when the date actually appears as part of a copyright notice on the score. If the date appears elsewhere on the score (like a title page, or the censor's stamp found in Russian scores), it appears in parens. If there is no date printed, it's listed as "n.d." followed by a date in parens (if known) or an estimate in parens, e.g. (ca.1876). Sibley's dating of scores if often extremely inaccurate. These dating details are helpful in determining the copyright status of works in the USA. Dates of arrangers, orchstrators, editors, and translators are also important from the standpoint of determining an items copyright status. Carolus 14:23, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Hello, thank you for your comments. I think, my mistake with Grand_Choeur,_Op.68_No.2_(Salomé,_Théodore), Postlude_in_D_major_(Tours,_Berthold), Marche_Triomphale,_Op.30_No.3_(Callaerts,_Joseph), Postlude_in_A_minor_(Calkin,_George), March,_Op.42_No.3_(Duncan,_William_Edmondstoune), and the single piece in 20_célèbres_pièces_(Chauvet,_Alexis) is not fixed yet - the older version has to be deleted. But now, the weekend is over, so my work here must take a break. Best wishes, --Tolentino 14:49, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
And in Pastorale_(Franck,_César) the Opus number is missing. --Tolentino 15:02, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Thanks again. By the way, we have publisher pages for Schirmer and Ditson - to link, just use this code:[[G. Schirmer]] or [[Oliver Ditson|Oliver Ditson Company]]. Have fun.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 15:07, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Very nice. BTW you can link to Guilmant with [[:Category:Guilmant, Alexandre|Alexandre Guilmant (1837-1911)]]-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 15:11, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Please let me mention that the Opus number is missing in 12_Pièces_Nouvelles_pour_Orgue_ou_Piano_pédalier_(Salomé,_Théodore) and in Prélude,_Fugue_et_Variation_(Franck,_César). Best wishes, --Tolentino 13:19, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

And I think that there are two scans of the same Leduc edition of Toccata and Scherzo in 10_Pièces_pour_Orgue_(Gigout,_Eugène), so that they could be removed. --Tolentino 14:02, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
Because meanwhile I found the whole Op.54 the page Easter_Morning,_Op.54_No.3_(Malling,_Otto) can be moved to this place. And The_Shepherds_in_the_Field,_Op.48_(Malling,_Otto) turned out to be Op.48 No.1 after I found and uploaded the whole Opus. --Tolentino 14:54, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

Hi, as I saw that you think Paa Vandring, Op.15 (Sjögren, Emil) is not originally composed for organ, could you please correct my instrumentation (as organ)? I do not know which is the correct instrument (Piano?) --Tolentino 15:27, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

All taken care of. Thanks for the note about the missing opus numbers. As you can see, there's plenty of clean-up to do around here. Further to Snailey's note above, we have pages and plate number listings for a number of publishers in place already. These are often very helpful in dating a particular score. Another thing that makes the copyright review team's job a bit easier is to include the number of pages. This is especially useful in identifying the original of something that is posted here in a reprint edition. Kalmus, Dover and other reprinters typically remove all original publication info like plate numbers, title-pages, imprints, and censor's stamps. Carolus 16:29, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
Oh. and for future reference, you can find a few useful lists on my user page - including almost all of Category:Publishers - IMSLP's most useful links category. If you're not sure if we have a page for the publisher, check there. You can make links by doing this syntax, as you might have guessed: [[PAGE TO WHICH YOU ARE LINKING|TEXT YOU WANT TO DISPLAY]]-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 20:05, 6 July 2009 (EDT)


Did the publisher issue these collections that you've now merged the separate opus numbers into, or did the composer originally conceive them this way? What you've done here is highly unusual and pretty drastic, though it could be perfectly logical and completely justifiable. If Franck originally intended the works to go into the collections of 3 and 6 pieces, this is in keeping with the general organizational principle used here. On the other hand, if these collections were simply posthumous assemblies by Durand or another publisher made after the composer's death, the individual works will need their own work pages again. There's certainly nothing wrong adding a page for a posthumous collection to a composer category if it's a well-known collection that is widely used, but please don't get rid of the original work pages when you do so. You're obviously knowledgeable in the field, but please bring this type of issue to a site admin or post about it on the forums before making such a drastic change. Thanks, Carolus 15:04, 7 July 2009 (EDT) (IMSLP Copyright Admin)

PS: It would appear that the two collections were indeed first issued as such, in about 1878 for the 6 Pièces and about 1881 for the 3 Pièces. We can probably confirm the exact dates via the Hofmeister Monatsbericht (which is online now). The scans we have appear to be taken from a reissue Durand did of both works ca.1910. The engraving style is much more in keeping with the production of the era before WW I than the items from the late 1870s and 1880s. Take a look at some of the Saint-Saens scores we have from the 1870s and 1880s to see what I'm talking about. Thanks for catching this. Carolus 15:45, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

Up to my knowledge there is a print of the 6 pièces in 1868 by Mayens-Couvreur (in one volume) which was reprinted by Durand in 1880 (possibly in two volumes, I am not so sure in this respect). If I had some doubts about the collections I would not have acted so drastically without asking someone. Perhaps I should act a bit less rough in future. Best wishes, --Tolentino 12:15, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

6 Studien in kanonischer Form für Orgel oder Pedalklavier, Op.56 (Schumann, Robert)

When I wanted to upload No.5 and No.6 I unfortunately took for No.5 the same file name as the last time. Therefore I replaced the two numbers and uploaded them again, but I think that this was not completely right, because the No.6 (which I replaced, see the version history) is probably still uploaded on some place in the server. Is there a possibility to kill this file which is not used any more? Best wishes, --Tolentino 02:26, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Public domain

Hello, could one explain to me, why the following links are not PD in EU? 12_Stücke_für_die_Orgel,_Op.59_(Reger,_Max), Livre_de_Noëls_(Daquin,_Louis-Claude), Prelude_and_Fugue_in_C_major_(Krebs,_Johann_Ludwig), Adagio_and_Allegro_in_F_minor_for_a_Mechanical_Organ,_K.594_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus), Gavotte_in_F_Major_(Wesley,_Samuel_Sebastian) - the composers are dead since centuries and the publication is, in my opinion, old enough. --Tolentino 16:25, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Editors also count.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 16:28, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
And Reger has not been dead for terribly long.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 16:29, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
Actually, Reger has been dead since 1916 - more than long enough. This Sibley item is a really bizarre case. I'm a little surprised they'd be scanning a 1929 Schirmer issue and I'm planning in giving the librarian there a call next week. Carolus 23:49, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
Well, I suspect that someone might have requested it in-house, and they accidentally posted it to the public one. Also, I only meant that he hadn't been dead for centuries plural, or even singular.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 00:00, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
As I mentioned on my talk page, it's not impossible that Schirmer dropped the ball on renewing this one. They have been known to miss a few - once in a great while. The three publishers who almost never let a renewal lapse are Durand, Ricordi, and Universal. Even during WW II, they managed to hire US lawyers to file the renewal papers with the copyright office. Schott is pretty good about it, as are most US publishers. Some of the German companies (like Peters and Breitkopf) were extremely haphazard about it. Carolus 00:13, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
Ah, okay, as I understand, there was a problem with the fifth volume from this collection, because the copyright was from 1929. Therefore my question for the future is: Should I upload scores not being PD in EU or should I forget this?

This with the "centuries" was especially not good, because I accidentally mentioned Reger whose scores were from the fifth volume. It was my mistake, because I only wanted to mention here my uploades from the third volume, and I thought of D'Aquin (should there not be a " ' " in the name?), Mozart and Krebs. Thank you again, --Tolentino 03:49, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

The sixth volume seems to be from 1940, this is really late... --Tolentino 05:46, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Actually, the problem has to do with USA status, not EU. That's why this is such a bizarre case. If the 1929 and 1940 volumes were renewed, Sibley could be sued for scanning them. If you find something in the Sibley archive that was first published after 1922, it would be best to post a question about it on the forum. The US law is labyrinthine - with no easy answers for items issued between 1923 and 1963. I've seen the name spelled Daquin as well. I recommend that you go to p.davydov's page and ask him about it, as he's very familiar with the LOC name and title authorities. You may very well be correct. It wouldn't be that big of a deal to move everything to a corrected name. It's perfectly OK to upload items that are still protected in the EU, since the server is in Canada and the Project Petrucci LLC (owner of the site) is in the USA. Carolus 03:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Update: The two last volumes of the Bonnet collection have been available at Sibley for the last two years. According to the librarian there, they've received no complaints from Schirmer, and the series is long out of print. I therefore have tagged everything as "C" for both USA and EU status, which basically means it's "probably" OK (Sibley did not check for renewal status). Keep in mind that we'll have to take them down if anyone at Schirmer barks and claims that it was renewed. You can upload Vol. VI if you like also. Carolus 21:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but it is better if I asked in cases when I'm not sure. --Tolentino 15:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Something you might want to look at:

List of Compositions Featuring the Organ and Harpsichord. Have fun!-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hm, this list seems to be very unorganized. Before I would start to edit this, we should perhaps think about some points:
  • The literature for organ is extremly large. Therefore I could not understand why one sould mix organ works with harpsichord works. If I would create a list of important works with organ, it could not find an appropriate place in the mixed list.
  • Nearly every work in the baroque era is accompanied by basso continuo. Therefore it does not make sense to list works with harpsichord as b.c. (this would be nearly the same as a list of complete baroque works).
Hence I would propose the following agenda:
  • Splitting this list into a list of compositions for harpsichord and another for organ.
  • The list of harpsichord works should only include works with the following property: The harpsichord score is explicitely written by the composer (this is not so often the case in the baroque). In particular all b.c. works will be removed.
  • The list of organ works would also exclude b.c., but this is not a big deal, because the list of important organ works is really large.
What do you think about this? --Tolentino 17:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I say: Run with it! Do what you can - I would love to see this list expanded to include the IMSLP Collection; You can create the new pages Here for organ and Here for Harpsichord.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 17:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I made a beginning. The problem is that one has to restrict to important works, and there are some composers who I know to be definitely relevant, but I could not say which works to list here.
Especially I do not know whether I am compentent enough to decide which harpsichord works to be important. --Tolentino 19:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Noone accused anyone of competency. Make a beginning, and people will use it.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 20:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so I created the page for harpsichord - most of what was in the old list is rubbish (it has not more in common with special harpsichord works as any arbitrary work from the Baroque period). By restricting to works which seem to be important (in my honest opinion) it is much better to overview, now. I hope that this list will not get unorganized by others adding arbitrary, unimportant works and that people will add things if the think that the pieces are worth to be listed. --Tolentino 18:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! By the way, one can link to the Fauré edition of the Bach Organ works - just look for "Complete Organ Works" on Bach's Page and you'll find it.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Uh-Oh! I just found - List of Compositions Featuring the Organ and Harpsichord solo. Have fun merging stuff in. -- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

By the way, could you correct in the box at the bottom of Missa_in_B_flat,_Hob.XXII:12_(Haydn,_Joseph) »Grosse Orgelmesse« into »Große Orgelmesse« ? Best wishes, --Tolentino 05:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)