User talk:Reccmo



Dear Christian,

Movements of larger works do not use the lower level headings. The Marcello is a perfect example of what we were referring to in terms of needless segmentation of WIMA files. It appears you arranged the entire work. Why would there be a need to divide it up into the three separate movements?

I uploaded the files movement wise because that's how they're present in WIMA. We've been discussing that matter previously in an IMSLP forum, raised by frustrations from some WIMA contributors. I suppose you don't expect WIMA uploaders to concatenate WIMA files before/after upload when a WIMA composition is present in files per movement. That's true for thousands and thousands of WIMA scores!

I'll see about moving this under the "Complete" sector. UPDATE: I've now moved the whole thing to the "complete" sector. Thanks, Carolus 22:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I filled the work information as I read the instructions in the IMSLP guide lines for file descriptions. Maybe you / the IMSLP staff should consider adding examples on how to enter description texts in cases like this. I believe other uploaders might misunderstand the instructions like I did.
BTW You didn't react to my question yesterday in the IMSLP forum regarding composers in the category walker? Reccmo 08:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I would imagine that is because the only person capable of answering the question is Feldmahler, the sole person who works on the site's code. None of the other admins have any way to affect the display of the CW and in most cases can only infer its internal workings, just like any other user (apart from the most well-known functionalities which have been described to us). Thanks, KGill talk email 13:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Anderssen concertos

Dear Christian: I noticed on one of these pages, that you have specified single strings in instrumentation, but the file description is plural -- which is it supposed to be? If it is single, I would like to change the file descriptions to match, otherwise I would like to change the instrumentation to match the file descriptions. Thanks, Steltz 15:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I've created quite a few work pages. Which one do you refer to?Reccmo 18:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Facsimiles of printed scores

Hi Christian, Please do not list yourself as "publisher" here, but instead put in the name and other pertinent info (date, if known, plate number) of the actual original publisher. The Cannabich Flute Sonatas, Op.1 required quite a bit of re-tagging as your listing confused one of the review team. Take a careful look at the page as it is when I've finished so you can use as a model for future uploads. Thanks, Carolus 04:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Concerning information for original printing facsimiles - OK
Concerning distribution of modern edition complete scores and parts - when transferring files I followed instructions WIMA uploaders got from IMSLP reviewers to present separate parts in their own tabs, except for arrangements. I've followed these instructions for my uploads since then, for example the flute concertos by Anderssen. I've had a look at File descriptions documentation to see whether I had misunderstood something. That didn't help me to a clearer understanding. Could you point me to an IMSLP page explaining where to present full scores and parts in separate tabs and where to keep them together. Then I'll expand the WIMA server documentation on how to transfer scores accordingly
Look at the pages for any Beethoven symphony and you will see how the parts are supposed to be done for larger works. We do have the option (as in the sonatas) for using a "Score and Parts" header for chamber works (less than 10 players) as it is sometimes more convenient to have the scores and parts in one file stack. The guideline for layout of chamber works of this nature is to be found here.
Concerning score labels - I've replaced the score description 'unrealized continuo' with 'urtext'. The former text is, kindly expressed, not quite appropriate.
That's fine. Urtext is much more succinct and to the point anyway. Besides, you could have added the figures, which means that the continuo was actually realized (in a way) - I didn't check that closely.
Strictly speaking the scores with harpsichord realization of the figured bass are arrangements, i.e. my settings reflecting my personal preferences and advice from an experienced harpsichord player, Colin Booth Reccmo 07:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes, that's sort of a difficult issue because, as you mention, they are technically arrangements since the composer typically only left a basso line. The general style we've been following for things like this is to follow the solo instrument as a guide. If the realization is for the original solo instrument plus continuo, it falls under the "Scores and Parts" header for original versions, if the realization is for a different solo instrument and continuo, it should go under "Arrangements and Transcriptions." In both cases, it's fine to use {{LinkArr|Christian|Mondrup}}, as it's something more than just a typical edition. Carolus 02:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Madrigali a 5 Voci, Libro Primo (Pedersøn, Mogens)

Dear Christian, The "arrangements and transcriptions" section of this page was a complete mess, and did not follow the guidelines at all. Because multiple arrangements for different ensembles have been uploaded as a large stack of files, there was absolutely no way for the various combinations to show up in the category walker. This is exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I recommended that WIMA uploaders take some time to familiarize themselves with how things work here instead of simply making up things as they go along. This page will probably take me 2 hours to clean up (it took slightly less than that, thankfully), which is time that we can ill afford to spare. Even on the section of the page for the original version of the work, the level 4 (4 equal signs) should not be used to differentiate between "original" and "modern" editions. These are used to designate a complete work, a version (original or revised versions - as with Bruckner) or sections thereof.

Much can be learned by simply observing in detail how some of the better-known and more heavily used pages are organized (as they are the ones most likely to be kept up-to-date. Note that we do not have separate sections for manuscripts versus early editions of the Beethoven symphonies versus 19th century editions versus recent typesets (like CCARH). Note also how each instrumental configuration is carefully listed in the arrangements sections, all within the higher level hierarchy of complete work - sections of the work. We spent much time and thought setting up the present hierachy and page-layout design which is made necessary by the sheer size and traffic of this archive. Thanks, Carolus 23:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I acknowledge your points on organizing material like this. In order to explain the mess you've found I have some comments
  • I did not create the work page for the Pedersøn madrigals myself. When I got to transfer my own Pedersøn editions yesterday I found the page organized in 2 tabs, 1 for the facsimile of Jeppesen's modern edition and another, labeled 'Parts' for the facsimile of the original part books. That lead me to initially continue organizing my scores like that. During the process it eventually occurred to me that something was wrong, and I spent hours on reorganizing my modern edition like it is now by comparing with similar material uploaded by my WIMA colleague, Ulrich Alpers
  • Concerning the instrumental arrangements by Klaus Bjerre I would hardly know how to look for similar work pages in IMSLP. To me this is one among many examples on the problems I experience in looking up relevant pages and relevant documentation in IMSLP. For example I experienced that problem when I was about to upload the WIMA scores from the Marsh Lute Book, an anthology of pieces by 'various' late 16th century composer. 'Various' is a keyword here: it took me looong time to find similar work pages. It had been so much easier if I had been able to look up the pseudo person 'various' in the 'All people' list. Similarly I experience that the IMSLP documentary contribution guideline pages are spread more or less coincidentally causing it very difficult to obtain an overview on IMSLP editorial principles. I've got private emails from WIMA contributors involved in the transfer project complaining on similar frustrations. One of then even characterized the editorial user interface as 'hostile'. I do know that this is not so intended; but I find it important that you're aware of how some (not all) engaged project participants experience their work conditions in between.
Reccmo 07:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I've added my (and Fritz Brodersen's) modern editions of pieces from Pratum Spirituale by Pedersøn. Its work page was initially structured like that you criticized for the madrigals by Pedersøn. I moved the scan of the original part book printing to he 'Score and parts' tab and added my and Fritz Brodersen's modern edition scores in accordance with the quide lines in Score submission guide/Layout of Work Pages. Its labels are similar to those you applied for the Pedersøn madrigals, but not completely the same. For example the documentation page prescribes a level 4 text 'Complete Work' while your label is just 'Complete'.
You may say that it's just a trifle. IMHO it's just underlining the difficulties of defining, documenting and live up to policies in a complex context.
Reccmo 21:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Christian, The Pratum Spirituale was uploaded and revised beautifully - no issues at all. I expect we'll split out at least a couple of the larger works to have their own pages, like the Mass for 5 voices (No.32) at some point. It is not necessarily an easy thing to learn the methodology here right away - which is exactly why I've repeatedly stated that WIMA contributors need to take their time and do some extensive exploring of IMSLP . It saves everyone time and work in the long run. The whole issue of how to deal with anthologies or collections - especially ones with multiple composers - is rather complicated. The ideal situation would be to have the one page for the complete anthology, under the composer category "Various" plus pages for each of the individual works it contained, under the correct composer category. Sometimes, this is easier when there are already a lot of existing work pages for the individual works in question. With WIMA's heavy concentration on early music, we will end up having to create a lot of new workpages for such anthologies as we were pretty sparse in our representation early music. That said, all in all I am really very pleased with the way it is going. Carolus 05:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The Whole Booke of Psalmes (Ravenscroft, Thomas)

Hi Reccmo, I just noticed that the file entries on this page for 'How long wilt thou forget me Lord (Psalm 13)' (Tomkins) and 'There is no God as foolish men (Psalm 14)' (Morley) are really two links to the same file of the Tomkins (notice that the IMSLP# for both is 136530). Would it be possible to transfer the Morley as well? Thanks, KGill talk email 15:41, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

OOPPSS thanks for letting me know. I've transferred the right score a few minutes ago
Reccmo 19:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
I've just now become aware of another work page,, containing a mid 19th century edition of 'Whole Booke of Psalmes'. I suggest that the content of that page is moved to page associated with Ravenscroft
Reccmo 19:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hm, are you quite sure? Ravenscroft compiled and edited the collection, I guess - but he didn't author any of the pieces (at least judging from the contents listing I found), so theoretically the page should appear under 'Various' anyway, at least in the main composer category listing. I'm not sure why this page has been around so long as one of Ravenscroft's own compositions... KGill talk email 21:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
T.R. includes himself in the List of Authors ( Greg Lindahl, owner of the Ravenscroft site takes this as an indication that settings in the TWBOP with no composer names have been prepared by himself. So do Martin Quartier and I as editors of WIMA's modern edition. I tried to look up the Ravenscroft article in Grove online in order to see a musicologist's judgement of the authorship of these 'anonymous' settings. Unfortunately I can't access my Grove online account right now. According to Elna Sherman, Ravenscroft's Psalter, 1621, Bulletin of the American Musicological Society, No 11/12/13 1948 ( Ravenscroft was 'Compiler, editor and chief arranger' of TWBOP - Reccmo 10:49, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Interjecting here..Ravenscroft is the composer in a large number of the over 150 items in the collection, possibly even the majority. Therefore I think it's justified to leave him as the (main) composer. Christian, I am doing some re-organizing on this page to make it more user-friendly. Note I have retained all the links to the respective composers in the listing in the "General Information" section which now also appears at the top of the page. This will allow us to 'stack' the files in large blocks, moving the titles of each single-page score to the file description field (which are still readable by our indexing system). As the list of titles will be quite long eventually, I would like to have it as a collapsible wiki-list (if I can figure out how to do it). I will keep the files separated by editor for now, but retain the order. We might be able to combine editors if its not a big deal to have each item's editor designated directly. (It should be given in a complete contents listing in the comments section below, for example). Carolus 04:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm continuing uploading and post processing in accordance with the restructuring introduced by Carolus. From my point of view as database developer I'd say, though, that the redundancy (multiple listings of the same piece) witnesses the weakness arising from the lack of an underlying data model adapted to a universe of composers, their works and the attributes (style, genre ...) of these works. Redundancy bears the risk of introducing errors to some of the multiple instances of the item in question (in this case a composition). In my experience Mr. Murphy is lurking under such circumstances. So we need to be very careful: redundant instances of items (scores) should be checked not only by one editor. --Reccmo 20:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Trouble in wima to imslp transfer

Hi Christian, I'm trying to help at IMSLP->WIMA with the contributor Fritz Brodersen. I've transferred Handel's Concerti Grossi HWV 312-315 edited by Fritz. I was asked by mods to upload a CompleteParts file for each concert, a mere merge of the single parts files: I didn't know I would have linked the single WIMA files and the imslp page into WIMA/Log page. Are my entries correct?? I've got some doubts because:
- some links in log page are broken. No file suggestion. (I suppose are the separate files, sources for merging pdf, never uploaded to imslp. They were useless, according to mods)
- some other links in log page are broken. They suggest a file in imslp server uploaded with WIMAuploader (I uploaded them before realize that they're useless)
- last two link in log page are alive. They reports the original wima file hosted at wima servers

Please tell me what I should do to fix the problem (if any) and how to behave in the future. Excuse for time-wasted and thank you! --jeko89 21:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Single-page files for multi-page parts

Hello Christian,

We really cannot have single-page files like these. The manuscript scans of the Raehs Concerto need to be combined into for Violin concertino, Violins I, Violins II, Violas, Continuo. You can have the cover as a single-page separate file if you like. The files are not that big and there is absolutely no reason these should be separate files. I'm deleting these and you can upload again once they are combined as required. Hopefully, there are not a lot of things like this on WIMA. I haven't seen many so far, which is a good sign. Thanks, Carolus 03:19, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I see you've combined the files. Also, please note that we do not use the second-level headers to designate manuscripts versus editions. This level is used only to designate versions and/or sections of a work: "Complete", "Selections", Overture", Complete, 1883 version", "Complete, 1896 version". There is no real need to separate manuscripts from editions as manuscripts generally go on top, since they are typically the oldest score. Other than the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" section, which has its own ordering protocol, items within the tabs and second level headers things appear in chronological order (oldest on top, most recent on bottom). Carolus 23:33, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


The way you placed the multiple arrangements on this page 3 Duets for Clarinet and Bassoon, WoO 27 (Beethoven, Ludwig van) could not be read by the category walker at all. Also for Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, Op.41 (Tchaikovsky, Pyotr). I'll re-do these, so please take a look in detail when I'm finished as I really don't want to be doing it over and over again. If you do not layout the arrangements tab in this manner, the category walker does not pick up the different arrangements. Lumping them all together does not work, though it is actually advantageous (somewhat) for copyright tagging. Splitting and sorting them after the fact takes much more time than would be spent tagging them if they were arranged correctly however. Thanks, Carolus 23:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I hope I've categorized the next Klaus Bjerre arrangements correctly. For some of his arrangements that's not quite easy since he often writes for optionally combined ensembles. This is the case also for a series of arrangements by another WIMA contributor, Arne Dich, see ''
Feldmahler has just released a WIMA audio file special page. I've transferred a couple of MIDIs for Klaus Bjerre arrangements as tests. I'm unsure about audio file parameters, though --Reccmo 16:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Feldmahler has confirmed that MIDI files should have the 'Performers' parameter filled with the name of the typesetter --Reccmo 17:44, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

You need to use 5 equal signs to have the arrangements read correctly by the category walker. The 4-equal sign headers are reserved for sections of a piece or the divisions "Complete" and "Selections". Also, alternate parts are not arrangements in and of themselves and therefore do not get a header. Otherwise, this seems to be going somewhat better than before. Glad the MIDI file issue is now worked out. Thanks, Carolus 02:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


Hi Christian. Before I enable WIMA uploads for MIDI files, I wanted to ask two questions:

  1. Are all audio files on WIMA computer synthesized audio?
  2. Do all computer synthesized audio have MIDI file versions (i.e. not MP3)?

--Feldmahler 09:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Most audio files are synthesized audio; but there are also quite a few 'real life' recordings
Most synthesized audio files are present in MIDI format only. There are, however, also scores accompanied with mp3 files only and other scores having both MIDI and mp3 files.

--Reccmo 09:48, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I've enabled WIMA MIDI uploads. I just want to mention that, if both MIDI and MP3 formats exist for a file, please upload only the MIDI file, to avoid duplication. If there are very high quality MP3 renditions of MIDI files (e.g. using some sort of advanced synthesizer) we might consider adding them at some point, but not right now.
Please tell me if you have any questions! --Feldmahler 11:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for the stupid question: how/where do I access WIMA audio uploads? When I click a work page with WIMA score files, for example ',_Op.59_%28Coleridge-Taylor,_Samuel%29#IMSLP146487' I don't see any links to a WIMA special page. If I enter the usual WIMA special page I don't see any new parameters and parameter values covering audio files? --Reccmo 14:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
By coincidence I've realized that the link to a WIMA audio special file magically springs into existence if I explicitly create a tab 'Synthesized/MIDI' within a 'Performances' section of a work page.
Is it a bug or a feature that the uploader must create that tab first?
I'm unsure about which of the parameters 'Performers' and 'Performer Categories' to fill. Since my attempts to fill information like 'MIDI' into the latter parameter are consequently rejected I assume that the parameter 'Performers' in this context should be filled with the name of the typesetter?
I've not been able to find any IMSLP documentation on valid values for the parameter 'Performer Categories'?
Would you consider adding help information to the new WIMA special page like for the score upload page?
--Reccmo 15:44, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Regarding audio upload links: For performance reasons IMSLP is heavily cached. Thus, the links may take up to 3 days to appear on certain pages. The reason it appears after you add a tab is because you cleared the cache (on page save). You can also achieve the exact same result by saving the page without editing anything.
Regarding Performers/Performer Categories: Use only "Performers" for MIDI files, and yes, put the typesetter name. "Performer Categories" is more of an internally-used field, and you should not worry about it. --Feldmahler 17:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
As an example on WIMA performance files I've uploaded a recording of the composition 2 Contrasted Pieces by William Blezard, performed by the Amoris editor, Jennifer Paull and a pianist with (yet) no IMSLP page. How do I associate Jennifer Paull with her IMSLP page in her role as performer? --Reccmo 18:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Please see how it's been edited now - it's now associated with both Paull and Gainsford. Cheers, KGill talk email 20:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi Christian, The WIMA MIDI files seem to be uploading fine now. Hopefully we'll be able to eventually add a streaming feature for them as we already have for regular audio and video files. It might be helpful to add timings of the files, if you happen to have them at hand. If not, it's no big deal as eventually they'll either appear automatically or users will gradually add them. Best Wishes, Carolus 23:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately WIMA has no information on the performance time of audio files.
Concerning a streaming MIDI interface: as I imagine a feature like that it'll either require MIDI browser plugins or external applications ready for receiving streaming MIDI information (code bytes) or it'll require conversion at run time to a supported sound format like ogg, mp3 etc. For my own MIDI files and many of those prepared by other WIMA contributors quite a lot of care has been spent on selecting suitable MIDI instruments and sometime panning the voices for best listening transparency. I tend to believe that IMSLP users' own MIDI applications are better adapted for rendering of the intended audio performance. An example is the linux application I'm personally using, Timidity, which renders each MIDI sound event through so-called 'sound patches' (wave format) corresponding to the MIDI instruments applied in the MIDI code. --Reccmo 08:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Madrigals, Book 6 (Gesualdo, Carlo)

Hi Reccmo. Just to let you know that under 'Càndido e verde fiore' (No.12), the Treble/Alto 1 part was not actually uploaded (what is present are two entries for the Treble 2 file). Thanks, KGill talk email 18:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know - fixed --Reccmo 18:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Lange: 3 Christmas Songs

Dear Christian,

I note that the final two have text by:

2. Alice V. Stuart (1899-1983)
3. Richard Wilbur (b.1921)

Did Lange obtain permission from the Alice Stuart's estate and from Richard Wilbur to a) set the words to music; and b) publish the setting on the internet (WIMA and IMSLP)? If not, these are copyright violations and will have to be blocked until further notice (until permission is obtained, in other words). Carolus 01:03, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I knew you'd ask that question and should of course have searched my mail archive for information. Here is a reply from the composer dated June 29 2009
"About the copyrights for Alice V. Stuart and Banjo Paterson. For Alice Stuart: the poems that I have used (including the poems for "Three Stuart Songs" and "A Christmas Fable") were bought by me second hand and were seemingly a privat publishing dating from the early fifties. I have in vain tried to located via internet/google any living reletives. So I can only wait for one to show up if there would be any problem. The fact that Banjo Patersons poems are freely available on the internet all over, seems to be an indication that for the remaining slightly more than one and a half year (till 6 februari 2011) there will not be any problem."
"There is in fact an other living composer whose great poems I have used for setting to music: Richard Wilbur (*1921). I was happy to be able to get in contact with him. He has given me written permission for my settings of "A Christmas Hymn" and the "Four Wilbur Songs" poems. (In fact I received back on my request quided by the mp's and pdf's a very cordial letter by him send to my post adress in which he expressed his appreciation for the compositions.)"
--Reccmo 08:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that solved the problem. I re-tagged the Stuart setting as C/C/C, which is still freely downloadable. You don't happen to know if Frederic Rzewski got permission on several of the texts which are likely still under copyright, do you? Generally speaking, there have been very few copyright issues with WIMA items. I have checked Elaine Fine's catalogue very carefully either, but most of her items appear to be instrumental. Carolus 05:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

  • The 'Antigone Legend' (Brecht and Malina):
Here is an extract of my correspondence with Rzewski concerning copyright issues:
We _may_ get into copyright trouble with the heirs of Brecht. His texts are still under protection. That is true also for the English translation by Judith Malina
Judith is an old friend of mine, but I suppose that doesn't make any difference. The piece has been performed a number of times, also recorded (on CRI in the USA, still available now I think), is as I say available on YouTube, and so far no one has ever objected. Should one do something about it, or just sit, wait, and see?
  • Lost And Found (Lieutenant Marion Lee (Sandy) Kempner)
I suppose the score is blocked due to its source: the New York Times of October 1, 1984? I haven't discussed copyright on this piece with Rzewski. I'll ask him about it.
  • The Love Of Money (Keynes)
I suppose the score has been marked Non-PD EU due to its text based on quotes from Keynes? I haven't discussed copyright on this piece with Rzewski. I'll ask him about it.
  • Nothing Changes (Pierre Teilhard de Chardin)
I suppose the score has been marked Non-PD EU due to its text by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin? I haven't discussed copyright on this piece with Rzewski. I'll ask him about it. There might be an issue with the English translation as well. Rzewski doesn't credit the translator in his score. He may have translated the text himself.

--Reccmo 11:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Publisher credit (copyright claimant) on recordings

Hello Christian, This needs to include either the composer's name or his publisher - either by itself or before the performer or ensemble's name - for works which are fully under copyright (like Frederic Rzewski). I created a publisher page and template for Rzewski's BMI publishing entity - {{SoundPool}} for Sound Pool Music, which is listed as the publisher of record in the BMI catalogue. The same principle applies to an edition prepared from a manuscript by composers like Rzewski (as with those done by Pierre Gouin).

Composers, MIDI files (and MP3s created from MIDIs)

Hi Christian, I think rather than using the {{LinkEd|Firstname|Lastname}} template in the performer field, it's better (and less confusing) to list them in the "Performer Categories" field instead like thus: |Performer Categories=Lastname, Firstname=creator . This lists them as the "performer" of their own work (which is a more accurate description than "editor").

This is in conflict with Feldmahler's answer elsewhere in my talk page on my question on how to fill the 'Performer Categories' field. By studying existing IMSLP audio file entries I learned that this field is meant for real 'human' recordings. I've filled it in accordance with that principle for the WIMA recordings I've transferred like recordings of Rzewski works. Has the IMSLP staff later agreed on another policy for this field?

On the regular score files, the "editor" field should be left blank unless someone other than the composer actually edited the work. For new or recent works it is generally assumed that the composer is the editor. This also generally goes for works issued in a composer's lifetime where no editor is credited, though it can get more complicated (with some composers especially) the farther back in time we go. Thanks, Carolus 05:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I see your point and will leave the "editor" field blank for composer contributions like the works of Huub de Lange, who actually engraved his scores himself. That is, however, not true for the majority of the Amoris scores which have been engraved by the Amoris composer Ian Keith Harris. So among the Amoris scores the "editor" field should be left blank only for Ian's own works. --Reccmo 12:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Jennifer Paull / Amoris International

Dear Christian, I recall from the forums that she was unhappy with things and wondered if you perchance had been in touch with her. Since she appears to be trying to run a publishing and recording enterprise, she should know that her distribution in the USA is fairly non-existent. We have no problem with a) adding links to Amoris CDs, MP3s and Scores provided they are available at Amazon or Sheet Music Plus, or with b) listing things in our Amazon seller account. I managed to find an MP3 album at Amazon, which I linked on this page just to show how it works. I would also recommend that the license be changed to the Performance Restricted for any original compositions of composers published by Amoris, assuming she is wanting to collect performance rights from SUISA. Thanks, 06:06, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Jennifer retired a few years ago and does not maintain any commercial business any more. She donated her stock of printed scores and CD recordings to the State Library of Aarhus (my Danish home town) and the Aarhus Music Conservatory. That's why your Amazon link says that the CD isn't in stock.
The Amoris human recordings published in WIMA and IMSLP are tracks from the CDs converted to high quality mp3 by me upon Jennifer's explicit request. Jennifer wants to share her music on non-commercial conditions.
Concerning the original composition scores: Jennifer has obtained written permissions from the composers or their estates to publish the scores on WIMA conditions. I store facsimiles of these permissions in an out of public access section of the WIMA server. I believe they should be stored in a similar way in IMSLP context. Any ideas how to do that?
Jennifer isn't that strong on IT matters. So her friend Elaine Fine, US composer and musician, has undertaken the transfer to IMSLP of Amoris scores and audio files. I'll ask Elaine to make sure that all original composition scores are assigned a Performance Restricted license. --Reccmo 10:02, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Rather than just asking Elaine to change licenses I've asked Jennifer about her opinion. Here is an excerpt from her reply
I don't think it matters. We are inevitably talking about very few performances and most of those will be in places where the hall doesn't have to pay anything, as I said. I know from my experience with Amoris in the old days when I supplied printed paper music, that the Marais sold more than twice as much as the sum of all other pieces of music I published put together. The oboist has to be coaxed into performing on the rare oboes and with new repertoire. The license has an unfortunate name. The word 'restrict' will put off more people than it will protect performances - I fear. If it had a better name, I'd think differently. This word will prevent people downloading, I fear.
So I think we should leave the Amoris score licenses as they are. --Reccmo 16:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. That's fine, we'll just leave all the Amoris licenses as is then. Apart from GEMA, I've not heard of any complaints form European performing rights societies about the Creative Commons licenses. In the USA, ASCAP in particular is openly hostile towards them - even the more restrictive versions. This is all very new territory to them, so they are quite confused about the nature of things. Carolus 19:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Some files not linked directly WIMA>IMSLP. Why?

Hello Christian, I've completed, after many uploads, the transfer of all files by Simone Stella and Fritz Brodersen. I've tried to check if the automatic redirects from WIMA to IMSLP works with all files... but it doesn't!! Some examples? For Brodersen:

For Stella there is only this problem-affected file:

It seems to me a random behaviour. It's surely not but....What is the motivation? What have I done wrong?

Thank you, Christian. Good weekend.

Thanks so much for taking care of Brodersen's and Stella's WIMA contribution!
The short answer to your final question is that you've done nothing wrong! I've noticed several such problems myself. Your message caused me to report the problem as a potential bug in the IMSLP forum handling such issues.
Would you consider transferring the audio files as well? Fritz Brodersen has prepared his MIDI files very carefully. I'm convinced that many WIMA users will miss these audio files in IMSLP context
The transfer of WIMA audio files is done almost like pdf scores. So you shouldn't encounter problems with this task. Just point your browser to the now existing IMSLP work pages, scroll to the top of the page, click the tab 'Synthesized/MIDI' and then click the WIMA button below. --Reccmo 09:39, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Christnacht (Himmel, Friedrich Heinrich)

Hi, I am confused about what is the original version of this work. The one you uploaded with the Latin text appears to be more extensive, while Knuth's appears to be just the last 16 measures. Was the Latin text the original version? Carolus 05:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I spent a couple of hours on searching information on this question in on-line sources plus Grove and MGG. Unfortunately my search didn't succeed: Himmel's production was large, so dictionary articles do not record every work. Like in other such cases I added a note to the discussion section of the work page, see the discussion section of Christnacht --Reccmo 07:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes, that's all we can do! Somebody will eventually explain the situation. BTW, don't forget that you must use five equal signs for an arrangement to be read as such by the category walker within the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" tab. If you use four instead, the system does not pick it up. Also, please change to "Typeset" when you've uploaded with the desired license, as the "New Compositions" designation is stored in a category as well. One of the upcoming projects is to fix the upload page so that arrangements will have more license options available. Carolus 04:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Loewe: Kleine Passionmusik

The file Frank Zimpel uploaded was missing notation. The right side of the page was cut off, making the PDF completely useless for study or performance. I've seen this problem before when PDFs are compiled from notation files. The settings and preferences have to be entered correctly. I deleted the files he uploaded, so you might wish to pass the message along. Thanks, Carolus 01:52, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


about his string quartets, I've been wondering (I forget if I asked already) - one of them was published during his lifetime, I noticed- is that the same as one of the ones that has been uploaded in manuscript or does that mean he wrote 7 rather than 6? :) Eric 03:40, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm in contact on that matter with the Royal Library (KB) librarian responsible for sheet music digitizing. KB has no copy of the string quartet printing and has asked the State Library (SB) in my home town, Aarhus for permission to digitize their copy
Author/creator George Gerson
Title Quatuor: Op 1.
Material type Sheet music
Publication: Hamburg: Iohann Aug. Böhme, [1---?]
ISSN Pladenummer: "J A B" 2425.
and publish the facsimile. Until I get access to the printing I can't say which of the Gerson string quartets is in the printing. According to the SB online catalog the printing year is unknown. Do you have further information? --Reccmo 10:40, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Just the same information plus the number of pages in each part (11,7,7,7) ("3 løse stemmer"), and that it is at Statsbiblioteket, Victor Albecks Vej 1, 8000 Århus C (this via and the Danish Union Catalogue and Danish National Bibliography.) If one can of course find out more about other publications of Böhme, it may be possible to estimate the date- that, or by one of a couple of other methods (looking in scanned copies of magazines/journals/publications, etc.), which I will try later. Thanks! Eric 17:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it seems Hofmeisters Handbuch does list it, as a posthumous work ("op.1 et posth.") published by 1845 Eric 17:28, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

In 1828 makes even more sense as it appears in Whistling (Hofmeisters Handbuch in that form first appeared in 1845, so "by 1845" can be misleadingly large and was to me even though I've run into this before :) ). As to the G minor quartet, thanks - have considered typesetting/extracting at least the parts of some of the Gerson quartets at some point soonish (my present projects which I need to get back to soon are two other works with scores but not parts uploaded here, though they aren't themselves in manuscript, just hard to play from in score :) ) (hrm. or maybe Krossing's symphony should be added to the "needs an edition and parts" list...will see what I can do :) ) Eric 14:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I plan to prepare modern editions, incl. critical notes, of all Gerson's string quartets plus other of his works. I do that in cooperation with the Royal Library, Copenhagen. See

Belatedly- thank you, I am glad to find out about that. Do you know if anyone plans to prepare an edition of Peter Krossing's symphony? (Though I haven't looked at it in a bit and should think twice before declaring interest and ability! Anyhow, I was concentrating on a quartet by never mind. :) :) ) Eric 18:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Editor of G. Cerruti, 12 Sonate

I am not the editor of this score[1] (this is a scan). It is part of Michelle Bernard Collection but it is not really part of the WIMA collection. There is no appropriate template for this situation. --Coulonnus 07:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


Hi Christian,

I see that there has been some discussion over the issue of arrangements - Michel Rondeau specifically. As I mentioned on Michel's talk page, it's ultimately the job of the admins, reviewers and librarians at this site to determine what qualifies as an arrangement and what qualifies as an original work. Naturally, the composer or arranger themselves can be of invaluable help in making this determination. My view is that Michel should just upload his arrangements to his own composer category rather than spending days and weeks researching who might be the original composer of a Christmas Carol (to give a typical example). Let's get the files uploaded and then we can sort out what belongs where. I have been going through Michel's uploads and moving when needed. For some works of his like "Variations on <Name of Tune>" or "Fantasia on <Name of Tune>", these surely qualify as original works since Michel was merely using the existing work as a starting point. He's actually doing fine, so he should continue very much as he has been. He's always willing to make the small changes in procedure I recommend. Thanks, Carolus 22:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Förster Fughettas

Thank you for these! I did notice a small error in one that I downloaded (number 3). It is missing an f-sharp for the last two beats in the top voice of the penultimate measure.

hrm. von Droste-Hulshoff

typically here, I think, though I realize not always, when someone's last name has a "von" or "de" or similar, it gets put in their first name and the remainder in their last name. though I realize by now several arrangements by her have already been placed in this category so the barn door is open, so to speak. I wonder if we will ever have a score of her 4th symphony, which I think Haydn conducted and which I seem to recall was recorded about 15 years back? (Oh. No, it wasn't her symphony that was recorded, it was something else, but the review in Fanfare Magazine - from New Jersey in the USA - of a CD of works by Druschetzky, Droste-Hulshoff and others mentioned that Joseph Haydn esteemed her and conducted her 4th symphony, I think...) Anyhow, despite my gripes, thank you (here and for other contributions.) Eric 18:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you happen to know the IMSLP standard for registering names like this? I searched the 'All people' list on 'von', 'Droste' and 'Hülshoff' without finding any entries. A text search had as results the compositions to texts by her which are now in her IMSLP page. It looks like some 'von' people are registered with all name components as their surname.
Yes, we look at first to see if the name appears there. (In this case it does, confirming Droste-Hulshoff as the surname) — P.davydov 06:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

My advice would be, if the category doesn't exist, first search to check to see if anyone has linked to the name before (e.g. with linked, linkarr, linklib etc.) and if there is some consistency to the way they have done so, probably follow that lead. I think in principle our standard is - more or less -to follow IMSLP:Composer Names where possible... but that is probably not comprehensive enough. Sorry! Eric 05:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

MIDI & engraving files upload

Hello, I saw your comment in my page. I'm sorry I was lacking of freetime in the last 3 months... now I have the possibility to carry on my contribuitions. You asked me to upload engraving files & audio files, but I'm used to upload scores only. I need some info! Which is the right case?

  1. I should upload ALL midis & engraving files in WIMA
  2. I should ask the administrator if I can upload for each midi, but I can upload all engraving files
  3. other

Thank you!! jeko89 07:03, 5 March 2012 (EST)

Please do as outlined in option 1
I take as an example Fritz Brodersen's arrangement for choir SATB of [Ach bleib mit deiner Gnade] by Vulpius. When you click the Edit button the score entry looks like this
{{#fte:imslpfile |File Name 1=WIMA.1676-Ach_bleib_mit_deiner_Gnade.pdf |File Description 1=Complete Score |Page Count 1=1 |Editor={{LinkArr|Fritz|Brodersen}} |Image Type=Typeset |Scanner=Fritz Brodersen |Uploader=[[User:Jeko89|Jeko89]] |Date Submitted=2011/10/6 |Publisher Information=Fritz Brodersen |Copyright=Creative Commons Attribution Non-commercial 3.0 |Misc. Notes={{WIMAProject}} }}
  • Click the Edit tab of the IMSLP work page, find the new entry pointing to the engraving file. It looks like this
{{#fte:imslpfile |File Name |File Description 1=Engraving files (Capella) |Page Count 1= |Editor=x |Image Type=Typeset |Scanner=x |Uploader=[[User:Reccmo|Reccmo]] |Date Submitted=2012/3/5 |Publisher Information= |Copyright=Creative Commons Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike 3.0 |Misc. Notes={{WIMAProject}} }}
  • Cut that entry and paste it into a simple text editor
  • Merge the File name- and File description fields into the pdf score entry. After the merge the entry looks like this:
{{#fte:imslpfile |File Name 1=WIMA.1676-Ach_bleib_mit_deiner_Gnade.pdf |File Name |File Description 1=Complete Score |File Description 2=Engraving files (Capella) |Page Count 1=1 |Editor={{LinkArr|Fritz|Brodersen}} |Image Type=Typeset |Scanner=Fritz Brodersen |Uploader=[[User:Jeko89|Jeko89]] |Uploader 2=[[User:Reccmo|Reccmo]] |Date Submitted=2011/10/6 |Date Submitted 2=2012/3/5 |Publisher Information=Fritz Brodersen |Copyright=Creative Commons Attribution Non-commercial 3.0 |Misc. Notes={{WIMAProject}} }}
  • Click the work page tab 'Synthesized MIDI'
  • Click the WIMA tab and transfer the MIDI file.
  • In the file description field enter MIDI Performance
  • In the performers field enter Synthesized MIDI
--Reccmo 13:25, 5 March 2012 (EST)

Oook, I understand that the warning not to upload MIDIs without admin help is misunderstanding! Thanks a lot! --jeko89 12:05, 6 March 2012 (EST)

And...If I had only 1 zip for multiple pdf spanned between more than one tab in IMSLP? What should I do?
I would normally add that zip file to the first score entry --Reccmo 14:53, 6 March 2012 (EST)

Selections division

Hi Christian,

I've noticed you are consistently not quite getting this one. "Selections" is used when there is more than a single section which are by the same editor and publisher. On the page for Lully's Ballet d'Alcidiane, LWV 9, note that Yann Le Gallic has produced editions of two excerpts from the complete work: "La petite chaconne" and "Chaconne des Maures" - which fall under the "Selections" header within the "Full Scores" tab. Note that under the parts each of the two movements has its own level-4 header, due to differences of instrumentation. By contrast, when you go to Handel's Agrippina, HWV 6,

It's difficult for me to figure out when to split parts from full scores into a 'parts' tab. My impression is that IMSLP is far from consistent in that matter. In this case I chose to keep the scores together because this aria is chamber-music-like rather than orchestral.
The general rule is that "Full Scores" and "Parts" are tabbed separately when the work is orchestral or for a large ensemble. The tab "Scores and Parts" can used for chamber works with one player per part, though the separate tabs for full scores and parts can be used when they are present - as is often the case with string quartets. As with many things here, there are plenty of errors, old pages which haven't been updated, etc. We are quite behind in cleanup and tagging for instrumentation. The sheer volume of WIMA material has brought us from around 105,000 files last August to over 165,000 today. The upload rate seems to have increased a great deal in the last week. Copyright review is fortunately pretty simple for WIMA items, but I ended up tagging more than 800 files yesterday.
BTW why do you keep the full score for 'Vaghe fonti' from 'Agrippina' in the 'General' as well as the 'Parts' tab?
That was a plain oversight on my part. Thanks for mentioning it. The score is now removed from the parts section.

each of the excepts has its own header due to having different editors. The general hierarchy within tab-sections is Complete - Selections - Individual excerpts. Level 4 headers are used to designate versions and sections of works. Except for the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" tab, level 5 headers are used for special designations like "Solo", "Orchestra" and "Chorus" under the "Parts"

Could you point me to a few examples of level 5 headers in the leftmost tab?
Not many of those. I'll look around when I have some time and post below.

tab or (rarely) "Manuscripts" and "Printed editions" under the left-most tab. The MIDIs and zip archives seem to be working out fine I am glad to see. You might also like to know that we now have a feature to handle collections. For single-composer collections, you add the following optional field to the "General Information" section of the page: |Page Type=Collection .

What is the benefit of this parameter? I don't see any references to 'Collections' under 'Browse scores'
It keeps a composer's main category section confined to works by the composer instead of being populated with groups of works assembled by others and at the same time enables the uploading of such collection volumes without having to split them up into their individual works. Carolus 18:29, 11 March 2012 (EDT)

For collections with more than one composer, which generally should go under (Various), use the following template to add the collection to the "Collections with" section of each composer's page: {{ColCat|Firstname|Lastname}}. This is much better than having a composer's main category page filled with the titles of various collections - which was the way this type of thing was handled previously. I have updated the Ravenscroft page we worked on to the new system if you want to see what it looks like. Carolus 15:43, 8 March 2012 (EST)

Excellent feature:-)

Collections and Arrangements

Hello Christian,

Not surprisingly, the addition of so many items from WIMA has made us look at the methods in which things are handled here. A good example of this type of new situation is when we have a collection, like Ravenscroft's famous volume Melismata. WIMA contributor Michel Rondeau, a very prolific arranger, has done a setting for 2 trumpets and 2 trombones of No.23 of this collection, "Remember, O Thou Man". We've got a separate page for this particular item for a couple of reasons: 1) It is one of the most famous and popular items in the collection; 2) there's an arrangement with parts. In the past, the procedure here would have been to have everything appear on the Melismata page - with no separate page for "Remember, O Thou Man". Now that we have the category for collections, and an improved ability to cross reference them, having the separate page is easier. This will be very advantageous in the long term with some of the larger collections as some of the pages where the majority of the individual numbers have arrangements have been very unwieldy and slow in functionality. I think it is best to keep the arrangements on the pages for the individual numbers (if they exist) and use the crossref template to link to it on the collection page - as I have done with Melismata. Carolus 14:47, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

I find the syntax of the crossref template very complicated (actually I'm unsure about its details). I'm afraid it'll slow down my transfer task substantially. And there's every risk that errors creep into the template expressions --Reccmo 17:39, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
That's OK. We can always take care of that later. Just remember not to duplicate the uploads. Arrangements of a single piece from a collection should go on the separate page for the single piece - if existing. BTW, how close are we to being finished with the WIMA transfer?
It's difficult to answer that question. There are (at least) 3 aspects
  1. The number of finalized composer
  2. The number of finalized contributors
  3. The number of transferred files
Ad 1) There are 1057 composers registered in WIMA's MySql database; 185 are marked as completed
Ad 2) There are 188 contributors registered in WIMA's MySql database; 61 are marked as completed
Ad 3) Unfortunately composition files are not recorded in the database (one of the major WIMA problems). A count on OS level of pdf score files returns around 50000 files. If you can retrieve a number of mass tagged WIMA files in IMSLP then you'll have a raw percentage. But don't forget that quite a few WIMA scores were pre-existing in IMSLP before the transfer started
You may inspect the transfer status in WIMA in this Survey page --Reccmo 14:11, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
Over the last two weeks the uploads have been very heavy (500 files per day or more). Without the very powerful mass-tagging tools created by Feldmahler, we would have a terrible backlog of copyright review. As it stands, we already have a tremendous backlog of categorization/instrumentation tagging. The Sibley mirroring project continues as well. Michel Rondeau seems to be learning the uploading routine pretty nicely, I am happy so say. Carolus 13:43, 19 March 2012 (EDT)