User talk:Dgljr5121973

Contents

Wishlist

By all means add items to the wishlist, but please do not delete items that are already there. If you need practice editing Wikis, practice on a Sandbox page, e.g. User:Dgljr5121973/Sandbox. Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 09:35, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Philip:

How would I do so, and still ensure that the items I put down would be added to the lists already in existance for the specific composer, or if none already exists, would be added to the list at the right spot (alphabetical order-wise)?

There are multiple edit links on a page – the one at the very top (adjacent to "discussion", "history" etc.) allows you to edit the entire page, whereas the ones scattered down the length of the page on the right-hand-side only allow you to edit a section. For adding a new composer, you would have to be very specific as to which of the right-hand-side links you clicked – so it’s probably much better if you use the top link to edit the entire page.
For example, for one of your edits to the G-K wishlist, you clicked on the right-hand-side "edit" link for Gershwin, deleted all of the Gershwin stuff, and added your composer with a surname starting with “K”. If you were adding directly after one of the “K” composers, you could select the appropriate link further down the page – but you should not remove any of the information already provided in the edit box.
The wishlists tend to gradually get out of order, every year or so around January I tend to have a tidy up (and change any changes in copyright status, which does gradually evolve annually). Don’t worry about that...
Lastly, as I suggested, you can create a page in your own userspace for practicing Wiki editing. Regards Philip Legge @ © talk 03:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, but how then does one add a new category, etc. to the list?

I am still wanting to know how to do this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many composers and composition requests that I have in my Sandbox that the composers are not on the Wishlist (Johann Mattheson, Arnold Melchior Brunckhorst, etc.).

Hi DGLJR. Well, if you’ve now had a bit of practice editing wiki pages, then don’t be afraid to go ahead and edit the wishlists – but do use the “Show preview” option before you commit too many saves to posterity. :-)
As for the individual headings for composers, you might have noticed we normally have a category page for each one, surname(s) first, given names after a comma. To make a link to a category, you may use formatting like this (which uses a template to take the mucking around out of it): 
{{Cat|Mattheson, Johann}} which results in: Mattheson, Johann
Then put dates in a bracket after the Cat template. As for making it into a heading for the page index, you put two equals signs around the outer sides of the entire conglomeration, thus: 
=={{Cat|Mattheson, Johann}} (1681–1764)==
(The formula of “–” creates the typographically correct dash, – rather than a hyphen, -.) Underneath the composer’s name, put an asterisk at the start of each line to make bulleted points of all the items on your wishlist, e.g.: 
*Item Nº 1
  • Item Nº 1
You will note that the list of Mendelssohn items you had entered below had run into one paragraph rather than being on separate lines – if you don’t specify a line break (<br>) at the end of a line, or use wiki formatting for indenting or bulleting (a colon or asterisk at the start of a line), then it treats items like this simply as a paragraph.
Whose edition are the Novello publications you’re citing, by the way? The five volume edition by William A. Little and published by Novello is most definitely NOT public domain.
Hope this helps! Philip Legge @ © talk 03:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Also, how would one edit the Page/Category you have for Georg Reutter? The info that is on there is for the son, whose actual name is Johann Adam Joseph Karl Georg Reutter (also known as Georg Reutter the Younger), NOT Georg Reutter (who was his father).

We generally follow the name and title authorities used by the Library of Congress. If there is a mistake in attribution, the form of name used by LOC is generally preferred to set up a new category page for the correct composer. You should also check in with the head of our librarian team, P.davydov before doing so. Another thing, please do not create empty composer categories here unless you are planning to upload some works of theirs in the next few days. Thanks, Carolus 03:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC) (IMSLP Copyright Admin)


OK.

One more thing: Kühnhausen I noticed that the score of the Kühnhausen St. Matthew Passion that is in the library is missing page 25 (which has measures 1-35 of Part II of the work). What is up with that?

Thank you.

Well, unless someone has a copy of that page, there's not much we can do except make a note of it (in the Misc. Notes section for the file entry). You can include the template {{Missing}} to make it easier to find. Cheers, KGill talk email 00:28, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Wishlist cont.

this is a complete couperin harpsichord works. Also, the mendelssohn you want is not postable—it was almost entirely published fewer than 50 years ago. I have a Henle edition which is good for them. You can find it at SMP-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 18:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I just looked at the Louis Couperin Harpsichord Works, and it ONLY the works included in the Boyvin Manuscript. There are other sources for his Keyboard works outside of that source as well.

As to the Mendelssohn Organ Works, there are PD sources (Novello and others) that includes ALL his Organ Works, not just Opp. 37 and 65.

Specifically in regards to the Mendelssohn, what I am talking about is MWV V1 and MWV W1-12, W14-17, W19, and W24-55. Here is what works they are:

MWV Opus Work Genre Key Year Notes M.B. LMA
V 1 Two Fugues Fugue organ 2 players
W 01 [Toccata] d-Moll, Fragment d 1820 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 02 Präludium d-Moll Prelude d 18202 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 03 Fuge d-Moll Fugue d 1820 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 04 Fuge g-Moll Fugue g 1820 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 05 Fuge d-Moll Fugue d 1821 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 06 Andante D-Dur D 1823 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 07 [Passacaglia] c-Moll c 1823 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 08 [Choral-Partita] Wie groß ist des Allmächt’gen Güte G-Dur G 1823 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 09 Fantasie [mit Fuge] g-Moll, Fragment g 1822-3 (?)2 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 10 Orgelstück für Fanny Mendelssohn Bartholdys Hochzeit A-Dur A 1829, lost (incorporated in Op. 65/3) organ IV/7, SON 412
W 11 [Choralbearbeitung] Nimm von uns, Herr e-Moll e organ IV/7, SON 412
W 12 Nachspiel D-Dur D 1831 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 14 Präludium c-Moll, Fragment Prelude c 1833 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 15 Andante con moto g-Moll g 1833 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 16 [Präludium] E-Dur, Fragment Prelude E organ IV/7, SON 412
W 17 Fuge E-Dur, Fragment Fugue E organ IV/7, SON 412
W 19 Fughetta D-Dur Fugue D organ IV/7, SON 412
W 24 Fuge e-Moll Fugue e 1839 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 25 Fuge C-Dur Fugue C 1839 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 26 Fuge / Andante sostenuto f-Moll Fugue f 1839 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 27 [Choral und Variation O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden] d-Moll, Fragment d 1840 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 28 Präludium c-Moll Prelude c 1841 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 29 Fuge c-Moll, Fragment Fugue c 1841 organ IV/7, SON 412
W 30 Andante F-Dur F 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 31 Allegretto d-Moll d 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 32 Andante [mit Variationen] D-Dur D 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 33 Allegro [mit Choral und Fuge] d-Moll / D-Dur d–D 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 34 Con moto maestoso A-Dur A 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 35 Andante. Con moto / Andante tranquillo non lento A-Dur A 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 36 Allegro vivace F-Dur F 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 37 Allegro / Allegro maestoso D-Dur D 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 38 Andante h-Moll b 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 39 Choral As-Dur / A-Dur A♭/A 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 40 Adagio As-Dur A♭ 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 41 [Choral] D-Dur D 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 42 Allegro assai C-Dur, Fragment C 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 43 Grave – Andante con moto c-Moll c 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 44 Allegro moderato maestoso C-Dur C 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 45 Allegro moderato e grave f-Moll f 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 46 Andante F-Dur F 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 47 Allegro B-Dur B♭ 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 48 Allegro maestoso / Allegro con brio B-Dur B♭ 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 49 Andante alla Marcia B-Dur B♭ 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 50 Moderato C-Dur C 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 51 Choral [mit Variationen] d-Moll d 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 52 Andante D-Dur D 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 53 Fuge d-Moll Fugue d 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 54 Fuge B-Dur Fugue B♭ 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413
W 55 [Andante. Recitativo] f-Moll f 1844 organ IV/8, SON 413

Also, all the LMA edition is is a editing and addition of material that was not included in the MB. By material, I do NOT mean works, but rather such things as the 1833 original versions of and/or movements discarded from the later published version of the "Italian Symphony" and "Die Erste Walpurgisnacht", etc. So all the Organ works listed above WERE included in the MB edition as well.

My mistake (I somehow saw it under François and not Louis). If I remember properly, the Novello etc. editions do not contain close to all of the above-listed, especially the lost one ;).-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 01:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Except none of the above works were or are lost, and all were included in the Novello edition. They were all included in the Krakow Manuscript.

Hello, Dgljr5121973. If you wouldn't mind in the future, please observe the general guidelines listed [IMSLP:Wishlist|here] for adding entries to the Wishlist. Asking for the complete symphonies in full score for any composer is somewhat of an unreasonable request, however if that is indeed what you want, please list them individually. Thanks in advance. Daphnis 18:12, 13 January 2011 (UTC) (IMSLP Admin)

Question:

Could I go ahead and create a category for Johann Bernhard Bach now, since the three Chaccones he wrote (BWV Anh. 82-84) are now in the library under Johann Sebastian Bach and need to be moved into his works? If so, how would one go about doing so?

In the wishlist or a composer category?... if the latter, first go to Category:Composers and check the composer's name and all similar names to see if the composer does not already have a category. He does - Category:Bach, Johann Bernhard. Sites like VIAF and MusicSack are helpful for finding similar names and composer basic data, by the way- you may be looking at a composer using a pseudonym while we have the composer under a different name. So be sure to check that first... If we don't have the composer, go back to Category:Composers and click "add composer" - you will be asked for some basic information, after entering which (the name needs to be entered according, as best you can, to IMSLP:Composer Names conventions. (Changing the composer name later is a pain! Other things like birth and death date are much easier to edit.) Eric 22:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Composer Category...But never mind about that. I found that it does exist, but the three works in question need to be moved from Category: Johann Sebastian Bach to Category: Johann Bernhard Bach. Again the works in question are the Chaccones in Bb Major, A Major, and G Major (BWV Anh. 82-84).

that's partially easy, and less easy. You or I could 'move' the page to -- for example -- Chaconne in B-flat major (Bach, Johann Bernhard) and change the description on the page appropriately. But if JB Bach's music has a modern catalog (like Kochel numbers for Mozart, or Hoboken for Haydn, or BWV for Bach, or Padrta for Krommer, or Jahn for Weber or Johns for Feld :) or ...) it would be good to find out the catalog number - not BWV Anh. (JS Bach catalog- it's not jS Bach's music). An example of what I'm talking about - well, consider some music once attributed to Mozart, like Symphony in E-flat major, WK 18 (Abel, Carl Friedrich) and Symphony, Eisen B-flat 6 (Mozart, Leopold). (I've heard at least one of JB Bach's four surviving orchestral overtures, by the way - impressive.) Though I see there are so very very few surviving works that unless more come to light, a work catalog for JB Bach would be unnecessary... Eric 02:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

How does one do so???????????????????????

Also, how would one add to the Wishlist a couple of volumes of works by various or anonymous composers?

J S Bach worklist

Hello. I recently revised this list checking the information against the most up-to-date sources I could find, but I see that you're altering quite a lot of the details. For example, the sources I used said that BWV 734a was composed by Krebs, but you've changed this to "authorship uncertain". There is a lot of incorrect information on other internet sites that we need to avoid, so are you sure that your sources are absolutely up-to-date? — P.davydov 22:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Your recent edits to this page have introduced links to non-existent pages, with formatting that disrupts the layout of the tables, and information that seems not to have been reliably sourced. As no response has been received to my earlier enquiry, your changes are being treated as suspected vandalism, and have been reverted. The page is protected from further edits until you can satisfactorily explain your actions — P.davydov 22:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

My sources are as follows:

1.) Bach-Jahrbuch

2.) Scholars (such as Christoph Wolff, Alfred Duerr, etc.)

3.) Bach-Archiv Leipzig

4.) BWV Catalogue

5.) Bach-Kompendium

6.) Bachdiskographie site (Jochen Grob)--Jochen himself has stated to me that all his info on the site is based on the exact same sources

etc.

I can guarantee you that my info is up-to-date.

So, if there is no problems in my sources, I would ask that ALL the ed its I made please be reinstated.

There are indeed many discrepancies between the reference sources, which I looked into carefully when reviewing the worklist at the end of last year. But you need to be aware that, however well intentioned, your alterations have damaged the page. For instance, if you change dates from "1720?" to "ca.1720" or "after 1730" (or even worse, to "Weimar", etc.) the columns containing that information will no longer sort correctly. Similarly, the columns for instrumentation and genre should correspond to the categories used on IMSLP, and your changes pay no heed to this (e.g. "For Choir, Orchestra, and continuo" should be "For Mixed chorus, orchestra"). You have also incorrectly added information on instrumentation in the title field (e.g. "Herr Gott, dich loben wir per omnes versus a 5 voci"), changed the strict arrangement by BWV numbers, and have linked to pages that don't exist. It is essential that any changes you make to the tables should respect the existing formatting, and we would require your agreement to this before allowing further edits. The page as you left it is too badly damaged to reinstate, which is why the reversion was necessary — P.davydov 10:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

In regards to BWV 734a, there is no mention that I have seen ANYWHERE of it being attributed to Ludwig Krebs, or even to his father, Tobias, whereas BWV 553-560 have been linked to both. Rather, I have heard BWV 734a attached to possibly Homilius, if not an early work by Bach himself.

Also, I wonder where you are getting your info about the BC numbers for the Organ works, especially since I have been told by Christoph Wolff himself (who is one of the authors of the series) that the volume containing the J and K numbers would not be published until either next year or at the earliest later this year.

These BC numbers are given in Grove's Dictionary of Music, so you'll need to raise that with the person responsible for compiling that worklist, which was Christoph Wolff — P.davydov 10:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Christoph Wolff has NOTHING to do with the New Grove's Dictionary. He may be quoted by it, but he has no part in any part of its production (the people responsible are the people of the Oxford University Press, which have shown in many cases that they are rather dubious in their facts). Professor Wolff has himself told me that none of the info contained in that volume will be released until publication (I myself have asked him about the exact same issue [namely, what numbers would be assigned to what works]). The issue with the people of Oxford University Press (in my opinion) is that they give credence to people (i.e., Joshua Rifkin, Andrew Parrott, John Butt, etc.) that do not have any real credentials or actual hard evidence to support their claims (they do NOT associate with any actual Bach research organization, etc.).

To be clear, this is the online version first published in 2007, where Christoph Wolff isn't just quoted, he's identified as the overall editor of the article, and as the sole compiler of the work list. Can you suggest how they could have included all the "J" and "K" numbers from the BC without his co-operation? — P.davydov 23:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have seen the online version, and no, no citation as such. As for the suggestion, I would think that it may have been rumors, since, as stated earlier, they have not actually asked the authors (and they don't use material unless already published).

You really need to look again at the Grove Online article — P.davydov 10:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Signature

Hi there. If you sign your name with four ~ markings, you can sign your name with a time/date stamp. Just a helpful hint ;) Thanks for your interest in contributing to IMSLP, Lndlewis10 06:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I actually haven't signed my name at all myself. It must have been done automatically.
I was just suggesting the possibility of starting. It helps with archiving and organization. Also, you can use (:) markings to indicate indentations, Lndlewis10 06:40, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

OK.

Adding "complete works"

Hello again, I previously posted on your talk page that we discourage putting this in for workslist. Please have a look at the rules frontpage here, specifically number 3, and edit your requests as appropriate, otherwise I will be rolling back your changes to this effect. Thanks. Daphnis 19:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most of the Wikipedia articles I have seen about many of the composers I have put complete works for as requests do NOT list specifics, and I have no way (as I am not in charge of my finances, and would not get permission) to look at the New Grove's Dictionary online (as it requires a PAID membership).

Being that as it may, it is often seen as irritating to downright presumptuous to make requests of this nature to a community of volunteers and, among those, users such as myself who often try to target pieces that seem to be most requested. It would be much better to indicate either "anything" or a couple pieces if you know of them. Daphnis 19:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

OK.

There are other, less costly resources than Groves. Have you tried Worldcat.org , Hofmeisters Monatsberichte (down hopefully only for the moment) , books.google.com , a number of other sources where one can find out interesting things about a composer and his or her output if one is clever about what one asks... Eric 21:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I realize that you are trying to make some suggestions here, but Worldcat.org and the other links you are suggesting are actual BOOK sites, not list sites (which I am wanting here). I am not in charge of my finances (due to my Asperger Syndrome), and have not found anything (outside of the Grove's dictionary (which DOES require membership in order to access, and PAID membership at that) that even gives a prefunctory list of ALL compositions by a particular individual.

You could just search for the composer's name - multiple works by that person would then turn up. It is a reasonable suggestion, and one that certainly does not merit SHOUTING as a response. Stressing words by putting them in all caps (as you have consistently done) can come across as highly insulting; please moderate your tone in the future. We are all just trying to produce the best result here, and there is absolutely no reason to assume that Eric's suggestions are somehow acting against that. Thanks, KGill talk email 17:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have already tried those lists (especially Worldcat.org), so I know what I am talking about here. As to the other suggestions, they are MUSIC PUBLISHING HOUSES, and therefore are automatically not a good suggestion, as music publishing houses do not always carry ALL of a composer's works (i.e., I know that mvmc.de [Musikverlag Martin Kraemer] does NOT carry ALL of Bach's works, only a select few).

@Dgljr5121973 - I find your attitude towards IMSLP members to be rude (along with the rest of the community). Please stop SHOUTING at the members on this site, especially those who are just trying to offer you help (which, as of yet, no one has failed to do). While it's fine to have your disagreements with IMSLP members, it is not okay to be uncivil about it. Especially when talking to highly respected members of the community. Don't take it personally, but calm down a bit, Lndlewis10 18:03, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

(to respond to Dgljr's previous post) Yes, but WorldCat does not list what is printed by merely one publisher, but of all available ones (so I'm not entirely certain you 'know what [you] are talking about here'). Similarly, the Hofmeister Monatsbericht kept track of European (especially German) publications starting in 1829; it is not a bad place to start. No, it will not provide the most detailed information, but it would list some works at least. If you are really having such trouble finding a list, you might consider starting one yourself by scrounging for information from various sources. Thanks, KGill talk email 18:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

My point about Worldcat.org is that it is a listing of PRINTED items, not of a person's ENTIRE works (which in many cases in the composers I put "all works" in exist ONLY or MAINLY in MANUSCRIPT form, which Worldcat.org does NOT list).
Dgljr, please stop shouting. I warn you that if you cannot control your temper, you may be banned from IMSLP. I am aware that WorldCat mainly lists printed items, but it is hard to argue that it is not better than nothing. (WorldCat does in fact list some manuscripts, although quantities are limited.) Thank you. KGill talk email 18:35, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Seconding what KGill says- and I listed multiple sources for a reason - books.google.com can (depending on one's location) allow one previews of scholarly works about a composer that do list manuscripts, for example. I know at least a little about Asperger's Syndrome myself, having a mild case (as is, I think, clear enough from my biography (itself not entirely accurate as of 2000 but there was some miscommunication :) ) on my composer page). If environment is leading to frustration, it is one's own responsibility - if with help, that does mean one must have accepted the help - to understand both one's condition and one's environment and how they relate... Eric 19:34, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have looked at Google Books, and any of the scholarly works like those you mention do not (I repeat NOT) have any previews available, or at best snippets views, which are next to nothing.

And WorldCat does NOT list manuscript works, nor does it in fact list works, but rather book (that is, PRINTED book) locations (I know this, because I have tried it for a lot of works and also printed books and magazines). It primarilly acts like the "Find a library" thing I have seen on Google Books (in fact, it [the "Find a library" thing] redirects to there). This is not helpful when you are actually looking for a list of works by a particular person.

Examples briefly. Very briefly, because I am ill. Type 'navratil symphony' at worldcat.org. First "hit" that comes up is: 'Simfonie : G moll, op. 4' - manuscript, archival material, two entries, the first at the Free Library of Philadelphia, the second with (for me) no libraries listed. at books.google.com typing henry holden huss turns up "Henry Holden Huss: an American composer's life" with a substantial preview - but only if you are in the USA (because of Google's odd notions about copyright laws). those are examples of which there are a number of others not limited to mid-European or American Romantic-era composers- but you have to know how to look. and in talk page conversations you have to learn how to converse with a minimum of SHOUTING thus, or you will have to take your concerns elsewhere. Eric

Firstly, let me address your point about the worldcat.org thing. Your example goes to my point precisely. It is not a tool to be used for finding a list of all known works (whether manuscript or printed) by a particular person, but rather what libraries may have a particular work by a particular person. As stated earlier, this is not at all useful when one is looking specifically for a listing (repeat listing) of all known works by a particular person. Which libraries hold what is not relevant here. And besides, your example as you present it also hurts your point in that it is "manuscript archival material", thus denoting that it is not a regular part of the stock anyways. Manuscripts are still considered regular parts of the stock in the majority of libraries I have seen (and I have seen a lot of libraries in my time--both public, private, school, collegiate, and music). Secondly, there is no other really effective way to display emphasis here or otherwise than doing exactly as I have been (and believe me, I have tried just about everything), and also I feel that people are not really getting the points here.

I find that 1911 Britannica (which is widely available free online) is often good for worklists of more well-known composers. Also: http://www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/worklist.htm is wonderful.-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 23:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that you may have missed the point of the injunction against "complete works." It is not the lack of specificity that bothers us, but rather the request for a very large quantity of material. In the case of Legrenzi, you seem to have put his complete works. It's practically the same.
P.S. How did you find out about Legrenzi? I only know the Bach fugue one his subject (and I've been told not to dig deeper...)-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 05:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

There was a good review in Fanfare of a 2004 parnassi musici (cpo) recording of Legrenzi's opus 2- he's not that obscure... anyway- carry on... Eric 05:31, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Re manuscripts, I find references to many manuscripts by Austrian composers in e.g. ONB's Musiksammlung catalog (those that they have stored in their library, of course, not ones that they don't- but when you don't have a complete list, you build your partial list piecemeal. So I learn about works by Robert Fuchs I didn't know about, for instance, by going to onb.ac.at , going to the Kataloge der Sammlungen, to the Musiksammlung (something like that), searching for Fuchs, Robert, and finding much that never appears in Worldcat, including a 5th string quartet (written in "Amont, 2.9.1925" after his 4th quartet) that I was fairly sure did not even exist - even Grove's does not refer to it in their complete list of Fuchs' works, nor does our list of his works refer to it here, and until I'm positive that it's not a typo on the ONB's catalog's part, I want to be careful about that in fact... but that's the idea. (that's high on a personal wishlist of a different kind...) Eric 01:14, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Cimarosa edit in Wishlist

there is a link from the Cimarosa category Cimarosa, Domenico to the corresponding wishlist (as in most cases - where there isn't, one generally adds one, but anyway.) The details of that link depend very exactly on the wording of the header of the wishlist (ending 1749–1801 in the case of Cimarosa). when you added extra information to the existing Cimarosa entry's header - the top, not the wished-for listing- you broke the link from the category to the wishlist, which looked specifically for the part of the wishlist that started with Cimarosa, Domenico (1749{{EN}}1801) (using what in HTML is called an a-anchor.) I fixed it, but please don't do that... Generally speaking one prefers, but doesn't insist, that the sections in the wishlist begin simply year n-dash year for standardization in any case - more detailed information can be found later if needed using VIAF, Musicsack, BNF, DN-B and other sources like I mentioned, and it simplifies linking from the category. (Please don't change ones you've already done - I've already linked those from the existing categories and changing them would break -those- links.) Will try to get to your other recent questions soon if someone else does, have been a mix of busy and headachy, I apologize! Eric 21:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I would prefer to have it back the way I had it. Most of the info I put in those dates are reflected in info that is NOT (I repeat, NOT) in any sources that is readilly available (such as en.wikipedia.org), but rather in such sources as de.wikipedia.org, it.wikipedia.org, etc. Therefore, anybody that does not have any access to these sites (which are NON-English sites) would be without the info. And actually, I would like it that EVERY composer page and Wishlist section have it in that format. Another item that goes along with this reasoning is dates which are in question. A perfect example of this is the case of Nikolaus Hasse. There is a huge debate about when exactly he was born and died. The info at de.wikipedia.org shows the following: "(* um 1617 in Lübeck; † je nach Quelle zwischen Michaelis und Weihnachten 1670 bzw. 8. März 1672 in Rostock)". In English, this would be: "(born ca. 1617 in Lübeck; died according to sources between 29 September (Michaelmass) and 25 December (Christmas) 1670 and/or 8 March 1672 in Rostock)". Therefore, to say "1670-1672" as his death date (as it does now in the Wishlist listing) is erroneous.

Since the non-English Wikipedias are also 'readily available' through a Google search, I'm not quite certain what you think the problem is. Be that as it may, the reason this information should stay off the wishlist is that it is simply not relevant to the purpose of that page. The wishlist is for listing works that people would like to see on the site, not for providing biographical information on composers. We have composer pages and Wikipedia for more involved information; there is no reason whatsoever to provide anything other than a basic identifier (name and years of birth/death) on the wishlist page. For years it has been done that way, and regardless of what you 'prefer', that is not likely to change, since you are the only person who has expressed a preference for more detailed information there. It goes against the more common style, provides unnecessary clutter on the page, and serves no useful purpose (I highly doubt that people first go to the wishlist if they want to look up dates for someone), and I ask that you stop adding it there as it only creates work for others (who have to remove it). Thanks, KGill talk email 20:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Then the common style needs to be updated, as it would be self-explanatory that any non-English Wikipedia info provided would not be available for English-speaking individuals (especially those who do not understand foreign languages--I am somewhat of the exclusive few that have either voluntarilly taken foreign-language classes for one reason or another or [more applicable to my case] are self-taught). And, BTW, none of the info is unnecessary, as one would also use this forum for learning about these people as well.

Then perhaps you should consider creating English-language Wikipedia articles on these composers. IMSLP is not Wikipedia, and it is largely outside our scope to provide this sort of detailed information on composers (even on the composer pages - we recommend linking to external sites when possible). The purpose of the composer names and dates on the wishlist is to organize the page and make the authors of the works easy to identify, not to provide a biographical dictionary. KGill talk email 12:57, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Wishlist - final warning

Hello again Dgljr. Despite other contributors asking you to refrain from including unnecessary information on wishlist headings, you continue to do so even though you have not made a coherent case for it other than you want it that way. You have largely refused to listen to the suggestions of others, preferring instead to implement your own conception of how the site should work even when there is not a clear consensus to do so. This has been a fairly consistent pattern in your contributions, particularly the more recent ones.

I have taken the step of locking the wishlist pages from editing for one day. After the protection expires, if without consultation you continue to make edits to them that go against what the accepted practice is, then they will be treated as vandalism and you will be banned from the site accordingly (starting with a period of three days). Regards, KGill talk email 02:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia

Apart from what others have said about keeping lists concise by leaving out information that is better catered for elsewhere, Wikipedia information is not considered scholarly, to a point where no university will allow citations from it. Though much of the Wikipedia articles contain valuable information, they can be edited by anybody, with no guarantee that the edit comes from reliable information. An article that starts out correct can be mischievously altered, and it can be months before the erroneous information is corrected. Grove Music will always be taken as academically more secure, which is why it is cited more often here than any other source, and it doesn't matter that it isn't available free. What matters is that it is more consistently accurate and reliable. I have no doubt that the intent of most of the Wikipedia contributors is excellent, but I myself have questioned an article that had very implausible material in it. It took four months, but it was changed in the end. How many people quoted from it in the meantime I dread to think. You need to understand that if you are going to contribute to this site, others do have a say in changes you make to pages. This is true for all of us, and we don't always get things exactly the way we want them. This is the essence of collaboration. On the edit pages, there is a note at the bottom: "Please note that all contributions to IMSLP are considered to be released under the GNU Free Documentation License 1.2. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but you need to accept it. (Steltz)

I'd like to add that it's against site policy to have composer pages with information only (you've created one or two). This sort of thing belongs on Wikipedia, not here - unless there are scores written, edited, arranged, or translated by that person, there should not be a category for him/her. Thanks, KGill talk email 02:05, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

composers in copyright

it is our habit for composers whose works are all in copyright in Canada where IMSLP is based, because they have died more recently than 50 years ago, to not include a category template in the wishlist. please do not put the template back in when they have been removed. There is an imslp.us where works published - not merely composed - before 1923 (like Martin's violin sonata no.1 opus 1, published 1916) can be uploaded by people in the US and hosted on the site - this is really the only exception for composers who died 1961 and after (or next year, 1962 and after... etc.- unless the law changes, as is always possible.) (US copyright law allows some other exceptions but they are complicated.) Generally, examples already in the wishlist often exist- in this case, perhaps, Poulenc. Eric 20:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC) (Bad example- there -is- a Poulenc category and am trying to insert that back in the wishlist therefore, though only PD-US works of course since he died in 1963. hrm. Shostakovich's earliest works were published after 1922, though, so for several years nothing of his can be on this site at all... better example, and indeed Shostakovich in Wishlist_Q-S is bold, not cat'ted.)

Eric, this is merely one of the “habits” which has evolved under prior, different circumstances – namely the prior unavailability of composers (such as Shostakovich) whose post–1960 death dates made them unsuitable for hosting at IMSLP (owing to the laws of Canada). With the addition of the separately managed but integrated server imslp.us, the only practical distinction between these composers now is whether they are hosted on imslp.us, or not. If there is already a category page in existence for Shostakovich or Stravinsky, then it is churlish in the extreme to deny linking it from the wishlist – the only reason it has not been linked hitherto is because of the previous practice prior to the advent of the US affiliate, mixed probably with a degree of caution: gradual incremental changes to these pages often don’t involve systematic improvements or site-wide changes. Regards Philip Legge @ © talk 22:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Point granted. Shostakovich won't be available until 2026 (1975+51), maybe earlier (if any of his published works were published between... hrm. ... not sure when Shostakovich's first published work was published, either... some sources claim 1919, in which case why is there a problem? I am confused. but that's all off-point.) Eric 02:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC) (hrm. actually, it seems not to have been published -in- 1919.)

My memory was at fault. I thought there was a Shostakovich work published pre-1923, but if there is, it isn’t on imslp.us. Certainly the early opus numbers were written by then. Anyway, the new paradigm: if the composer can be freely uploaded, use the Cat template to create a link whether the target exists or not; only post-1960 composers with extant pages are permitted a similar link. Sorry for munging Wishlist Q-S, you were obviously unaware I was in the middle of editing it. Philip Legge @ © talk 04:24, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Ultimatum

OK, this is your last warning. Please stop the following behaviors, or we will be forced to ban you from this website:

  1. Do not SHOUT to emphasize your statements. If necessary, use bold or italics
  2. Please do not add complete works of composers to the wishlist. This is presumptuous behavior to most users. Please find a more constructive way to contribute. Sometimes, these works are not even possible to find, as the only copies are located in a library hostile to their being scanned.

Thank you-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 19:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Then perhaps you should ask someone that has a lot of money to shell out some this way. As stated earlier, I have Asperger Syndrome, and as such am not in charge of my finances. Therefore, purchasing scores and making copies of works are out of the question, and there is a lot of music I would like to have (mostly complete works of individuals (or at least complete Cantatas, Oratorios, Keyboard Works, etc.)). Besides which, having only select bunches of works, to me, is exactly the problem I have with Google Books, Worldcat.org, etc. They are too selective...To me, a library should encompass every possible subject (or in this case, every possible work). I understand some may be outside the PD guidelines, and am willing to make an exception for that, but to say "I only want this or that in the library" is to limit the scope, and therefore defeats the purpose of having a library at all (namely, to collect all written knowledge and make it accessible to a wide general readership for their education and enjoyment).

DGLJR, please understand that you are confusing the function of the wishlist with that of composer’s work lists. In the best possible world, IMSLP would already be furnished with facsimile copies of every possible manuscript source, and scans of every printed edition. This is not that world.
Perforce, especially as IMSLP’s body of holdings is largely contributed by volunteers who do not possess infinite resources to muster, it is desirable that the wishlist is kept focussed on the works that would be most desirable to acquire: this means that any individual composer’s listing in the wishlist (particularly if their œuvre is large) must be selective, not all-encompassing.
In the past, other contributors with a particular interest (seemingly bordering on obsession) have asked for laundry lists of works by certain composers, and the response has been consistent: if you can’t provide a useful request for a reasonably achievable contribution, then the laundry list will be removed and placed elsewhere. Yesterday I discovered several such unreasonably long additions, rather like your recent additions under Pachelbel, and have placed them elsewhere.
To keep the wishlist useable, please keep any additions per composer under about one screen’s worth of length. This is an arbitrary rule of thumb, but consider that most other contributors have been able to suggest wanted items in a way that has not disturbed the system.
If your wanted list of one composer’s works is already longer than one screen deep, then it is well on the way to becoming a work list – not a practical wishlist. There are separate pages for these:
Category:Composer Composition Lists
The wishlist for Pachelbel that you are currently adding is already over the rough “one screen’s worth” limit and will be removed shortly, so please do us a favour and compile a List of compositions by Johann Pachelbel somewhere other than the wishlist. The red link indicates that such a page doesn’t already exist.
If you have issues to raise about the organisation of IMSLP then we have yet to hear of them over at the IMSLP Forums. We’d generally prefer it if you raised any concerns there. If you search the recent threads you will see I’ve raised questions about the problems with the length of the wishlist (which were there already in actual fact, before being further exacerbated).
Finally, you may ask for a degree of latitude owing to your condition (Asperger’s) and it will very likely be granted — but do not mistake that for insisting that the site must work to your demands.
Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 21:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I do not believe that I am confusing the two, as the majority of the works by (for example) Pachelbel are not in the library already, hence the wishlist. As to making ISMLP fit to my demands, it is not just mine only, but the demands of any thinking person. As I stated above, the function of a library as such (as this site purports to be) is to house all printed knowledge available for the education and enjoyment of its patrons. Even in the description of the site, it states (and I quote): "Welcome to the Petrucci Music Library! Our goal is to create a virtual library containing all public domain music, as well as music from composers who are willing to share their work with the world without charge". Therefore, if this forum is going to be like most libraries, then the description should be changed (as the majority of libraries themselves do not live up to their stated purpose either, but are selective in their catalogues as well). Dgljr5121973 20:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Au contraire, you are enlisting a strawman support of “any thinking person”. I couldn’t agree more with you on the stated aims of IMSLP… but you still misunderstand the function of the wishlist, as detailed here, IMSLP:Wishlist, and I quote:
“In order to motivate those with the desired scores to take time scanning and uploading them, please follow a few decency guidelines first. … 3. Request only specific works you need or want and not the entire composer's catalogue. … Anyone perusing these lists will almost certain be dissuaded from contributing requested scores if they see someone who is demanding or with unreasonably large requests.”
(My emphasis above.) The above quote may not be well written, but it is perfectly clear in meaning. The purpose of the wishlist is to be selective in order to prioritise the acquisition of new materials. As these are added to the site over time, items disappear from the wishlist and new ones appear – from the almost limitless supply of possible items that IMSLP currently does not have. This is entirely normal and how the wishlist has worked for the past four or so years. Adding too many items to the list merely makes it unwieldy and difficult to edit, and thus all the more likely for it not to be properly maintained, as well as for much-desired items to be ignored when contributors are looking for “gaps” to fill.
In other words, your additions are actually destructive to the list’s function, and your selections (since you have been picking and choosing amongst composers) are being unilaterally imposed on the rest of the IMSLP community. This is why you are being asked to stop, and as I said before, I have no compunction in culling the list back to useable proportions.
If you wish to argue against the way the wishlist is implemented, that’s fine, but you need to take the discussion to the forums and carry the weight of influence there, if you desire it to change. That is how the fine detail of site policy is thrashed out and if necessary, changed. Until you do that, your contributions will continue to go against the grain. Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 21:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, how does one go about creating such a list? As I stated earlier in the Wishlist post, I can add to some things, but have no idea on how to create an entire page. Dgljr5121973 20:44, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Follow the red link to its target, and click on the Edit button. Or in your browser, replace the current page title e.g. “User_talk:Dgljr5121973” with the desired title of the new page: if you type “List of compositions by Johann Pachelbel” your web browser will usually interpret spaces as underscores to arrive at the proper destination. Once you start editing the page, it’s just the same as normal, but the first time you click “Save page” is when the new page is created on the Wiki. Philip Legge @ © talk 21:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
PS A reminder, please sign your posts by adding four tildes — ~~~~ — once you finish what you want to type. Thanks.
PPS The Pachelbel wishlist additions have now been moved to your sandbox: User:Dgljr5121973/Sandbox#List of compositions by Johann Pachelbel. The next move is yours — PML

Actually, PML, the list I was compiling was nowhere near a complete works list, as major quantities of works were left off (i.e., all the chamber works, all the arias, etc.). Dgljr5121973 20:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

True enough (I should have phrased better)—but this is like Daphnis' comment about complete symphonies. I love pachelbel's music (although mostly keyboard and chamber music) and would greatly enjoy seeing it here, but somebody else would have to do an incredible amount of work, and that person will do it if they want to. Requesting this isn't going to make it happen any faster.-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 19:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
To Perlnerd’s comment I would add, that an incomplete works list for Pachelbel would still be better than no worklist at all, which is the current situation. However, as has been raised numerous times, the wishlist is not the place for even an “incomplete” list, if the works are reeled off without reference to the constraints of practicality and priority. Philip Legge @ © talk 21:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Nowiki is used so that a coding technique will display without executing. If you want it to work- for example, tilde --display your signature - remove the nowiki brackets, so that your signature and not the tildes themselves will show. ... And the goal is, and is achieved, eventual, community and piecemeal, in the manner of many Wiki projects (nor is the Wishlist the same as the site goal, though it is part of a means to it. But its rules may not be ignored for that reason. Several of the wishlist rules are there precisely because this site does not belong to any one member, Feldmahler aside, and should not be overrun by any one member's contributions to the point where others have difficulty adding theirs or figuring out how to make use of what is there and what has been asked for. So clarity, concision, restraint, are among what are request and if needed enforced. If they are the demands of every thinking person then since we hear them so rarely, your opinion of the vast majority of IMSLP contributors- either of their capacity for thought or of their willingness to speak up since they agree with you - is low indeed. One does not request that you fit in in your attitudes and opinions here like the sheep (baaah humbug to that idea, and just because I also am an ASpie doesn't mean I can't bldy well make a pun) but hereabouts - guidelines one must acknowledge and think about hard even if one ends up, sometimes, breaking them- and rules, one follows. Eric 17:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Rameau wishlist additions

Is there any reason why you are adding requests for Rameau works which are already present? Daphnis 19:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Because I haven't seen some of them on the list. Dgljr5121973 20:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Did you actually look? Daphnis 20:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Generation harmonique
Traité de l'harmonie
Nouveau systême de musique théorique

Block

Hello Dgljr. I notice that your recent wishlist additions have been slipping up to their previous extent (i.e., you have been making enormous additions to it, especially that last one for Corrette). Keeping in mind the history of repeated warnings behind this, including the ultimatum above, your last edits have been treated as vandalism and you have now been banned from editing IMSLP for the period of one week. Regards, KGill talk email 21:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

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