User talk:Pml/Archive 1

Free public domain sheet music from IMSLP / Petrucci Music Library
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Cross linking, CPDL / IMSLP

Hi Philip! There was some discussion on my user talk page about crosslinking between IMSLP and CPDL composer categories (i.e. IMSLP's composer page links to CPDL and vice versa). I don't know if CPDL is interested in such a collaboration? --Feldmahler 14:24, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

Could be, could be... :) -- Philip Legge @ © Φ 02:02, 2 April 2007 (EDT)
I'm gonna use your talk page to discuss this since it is still quite short ;) I'm still not very sure whether automatic linking will work... this is because some composer names are not absolute and may be different (I'm assuming at least some of the 200something composers on IMSLP have different named categories on CPDL). I can write an extension to reverse the surname first ordering easily, but even after reversal I'm not sure if it will automatically work due to actual differences in name... Maybe this will have to be implemented manually? Or is there a semi-automatic way to do it? --Feldmahler 02:28, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

I think that automatic linking might actually work, if we make use of the redirects on CPDL (see e.g. the redirects pointing to "Sergei Rachmaninoff"). I have never done any serious MediaWiki hacking, but I suppose that resolving redirects shouldn't be a particularly complicated issue. Maybe we could also have an automatic list of IMSLP categories that don't match any CPDL page. These could be checked manually once in a while, and if a corresponding CPDL page exists, it would be sufficient to add a redirect on CPDL with the writing used on IMSLP.

A different idea - probably too complicated, but let's brainstorm :) If, as I have proposed in IMSLP:Linking across projects, we are ever going to adapt a Wikipedia interwiki bot such that it can be run on IMSLP to put links to Wikipedia articles in various languages, then in a second step, the bot could run (with permission) on CPDL, find the links to Wikipedia and resolve redirects where needed. As a result, we could get a table of relations IMSLP category - Wikipedia article, and CPDL page - Wikipedia article. The two tables can then be matched, and the bot could write the interwiki links both to IMSLP and CPDL. As a byproduct, the hypothetical bot could also produce a list of Wikipedia articles that lack links to IMSLP or CPDL. --Leonard Vertighel 04:05, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

Hi Philip, we have come to the conclusion that it is probably better to do the linking manually. Feldmahler has already changed the IMSLP composer template (here is the first example of application). How should the links in CPDL be made? Thanks in advance, --Leonard Vertighel 16:54, 4 April 2007 (EDT)


with your copyright reviewer status. I'm together with Carolus a supervisor for the reviewers, so you can ask me anything. There's also a special page for reviewers: IMSLP:Copyright Reviewers. Cheers, Peter talk 16:30, 30 September 2007 (EDT).

NMA project

Hi philip, some months ago, I started to download and cleanup systematically the NMA for myself. My aim was to reconstruct each volume as a clean high quality pdf file (including blank pages), in a similar spirit as BGA. For the moment I have made a little pause (!), but I already completed ~1/2 of the job. Complying with your project would only consist in splitting those files (PD volumes only) and upload. How could we share these ? Best regards, Matthieu 08:23, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

PS: I also posted this message to the forum.

Hi Philip, since you're the NMA project leader, I'll use this place to post those items where one of our contributors has uploaded a series of one-page files. There are a number of fine folks here who can merge them easily if you don't happen to own the software yourself - as I'm sure you noticed over at the forum. BTW, I have a question for you outside of the IMSLP realm about some of your editing projects. Regards, Carolus 21:44, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

Sonate in D, F, B and G for 2 violin, organ, cello and bass KV 144 (Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus)
Per pietà, bell' idol mio, K. 78 (Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus)
Cassation in G (Final-Music) KV 63 (Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus)

Hi Carolus, I've sent an e-mail to your yahoo address on the other topic. As you may guess I have Acrobat Standard, which can amalgamate pages from separate PDFs :) Regards, Philip Legge @ © Φ 22:16, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

Hi Philip, We've found out a few things since we started talking about this a year ago. Urtext or Critical editions have a maximum term of 30-years from publication in the entire EU. (93/98 EC Copyright Directive). While individual countries may opt for lesser terms - or no protection at all- the term for such editions can be no more than 30 years from publication. Italy has a 20-year term, while Germany and the UK have 25-year terms (though the UK's doesn't explicitly refer to urtext or critical editions like the Italian and German laws do). The country of origin is most likely going to be Germany (where the Baerenreiter, the publisher of the series and legal copyright claimant, is located) though it might be Austria if the Austrian state funded the series. Carolus 01:14, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Moved page (3 Illuminations, Havergal Brian)

Hi Pml, I have moved the page 3 Illuminations (Brian, Havergal), which you requested to be undeleted, to User:Pml/3 Illuminations (Brian, Havergal), as it is not part of the main library. Thanks, --Leonard Vertighel 03:35, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks very much Leonard. When I have a moment I'll check the page isn't being included in any of the official categories, such as Category:Piano piece, as it shouldn't be listed there. Regards, Philip Legge @ © Φ 17:20, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Fazil Say

Hi Pml! Just a little note that when you are unsure whether the uploader has permission, do not check "permission granted" because doing so will allow file download. Rather, just tag N/N/N with a note, and someone will verify before deletion. Tagging N/N/N does not allow general download. (This note is because of an e-mail complaint I received for Jazz Fantasy on Mozart (K.331 Last Movement) (Fazıl, Say) being downloadable.)

But thanks for the good work you are doing on IMSLP :-) --Feldmahler 11:25, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

I doubt that this user will be the well known concert pianist Fazil Say ??? I blocked the file again as I don't see evidence--Peter talk 08:55, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
It seems "well known" is in the eye of the beholder; I'd found an article on him on the Turkish wikipedia, from which I gleaned that he plausibly could be the submitter (or the uploader to be an associate). Thanks for blocking it until we sort this out! Regards, Philip Legge @ © Φ 19:50, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
I thought you said the uploader was Fazil Say on the forum - obviously I got it backwards! I'll probably delete this tonight or sometime this weekend since this was an unauthorized posting. Carolus 13:42, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
Very sorry Pml for not replying for so long; I'm busy as hell until the end of this month. I've received your messages on my talk page. Generally I think it is good to be safe than sorry, and you can always ask for confirmation from other copyright reviewers anyway.
The reason I also thought the file was suspect is that most user-created contributions are new typesets rather than scans. The fact that the file was scanned from what seems like an anthology struck me as very suspicious. First, the commentary for that piece may be copyrighted above and beyond the music, and second, I don't think someone will post a scan from an anthology of their own work.
But this case is fixed, and don't let it bug you any more :-) --Feldmahler 23:46, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Reactivation of the NMA project

Hi Philip ! Sorry for this late answer, I'm back after few days off. Of course, I am still in the project and I am glad to ear that it restarts. I'll have a look at your posts and to the project page, and I recontact you as soon as I have something new. Best regards,--Matthieu 04:58, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Hi Philip, I just notced the new NMA template - a welcome addition indeed. Do you think it's necessary to repeat the NMA listing abbrevated in brackets after the main part? The reason I ask is that I notice it adds enough space so that things sometimes break into 3 regular lines for the whole template to appear - not including the urtext box (nice addition, btw). I'm on a 24-inch monitor, which is fairly wide as monitors go. Adding vertical length is always something of a concern - especially on the long pages like the one for Mozart's Requiem - until Feldmahler invents a method for adding tabs to make a single workpage into 3 or four subpages. This is why I've taken to using a fairly minimalist approach to the listing of the series title on some of the other templates instead of having the often-lengthy German title appear in full. Carolus 02:02, 11 December 2008 (EST)
Hi Carolus,
Having the template allows easy tracing of works too: Special:Whatlinkshere/Neue Mozart-Ausgabe :-)
I think having the short form of the NMA listing is useful, since these appear as references all over the place: the DME website of course, as abbreviations in MGG and Grove, and on the spines on the volumes themselves! I’m aware some of the long titles don’t flow terribly well. If I created a modified version of the template, say {{Bärenreiter-Urtext}}, would you mind abridging the text as necessary: obviously mentions of Italy and Russia don’t apply, but some Bärenreiter editions now go out from Prague, having purchased Supraphon, etc.
Then any of the Bärenreiter urtexts that turn up from time to time (e.g. that whole volume of Berwald’s piano music!) can just quote {{Bärenreiter-Urtext}} with specific info for them.
Having all of the individual movements of the Requiem separately available will actually be against the NMA project style guide, when I get around to writing it: as the DME is available down to the level of individual pages, I don’t see the point in replicating such fine-grained breaking up of movements/sections, especially for works which would have very long work pages anyway. For example, Idomeneo is available as a minimum of 72 separate PDFs!
Anyway, as far as I can tell there are only three items from the NMA currently on IMSLP, so it’s not critical yet if we decide to play around with the template...
Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 19:00, 12 December 2008 (AEDT)

Clarinet Sonata

First of all, pardon me if anything I do here is wrong - first time and all. Yes the piece has been recorded, twice in fact. The first was a terrible performances and even worse recording (my phone could have done a better job...), the second was much better on both accounts but not perfect. The reason I uploaded it here is that I finally finalised (...) the score because my recital is in 4 days time. I will get a much better recording of it then - with some professional musicians also. If you are interested the recordings can be found here - should I put that link somewhere on the work page?


Hi Yagan,
I imagine if you're happy for the recording to be released to the world, then it would be a useful link for the work page.
Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 20:37, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Re: Schubert - "Rosamunde" (Die Zauberharfe) overture, D.644

OK, here is what Deutsch says...

(My copy is the Kalmus reprint of the 1950 edition of the Schubert Thematic Catalogue.)

D.644: 'Die Zauberharfe', Magic Play - with Music - in 3 Acts, libretto by Georg von Hofmann. (XV 7). 1819-20.

(It then quotes the first line of each of the musical numbers, and the Overture is definitely that which we all associate today with 'Rosamunde'.)

1st performance: 19th August 1820, Theater an der Wien, Vienna (performed there eight times in all).

1st edition:

  • Overture to Act 1, arranged for pianoforte duet, and published under the title 'Ouvertüre zum Drama Rosamunde' - c.1827, M. Leidesdorf, Vienna;
  • 'Ouvertüre zum Oper Rosamunde,' in parts, 1854, C.A.Spina, Vienna;
  • In score - January 1867, ibidem (no. 19,102);
  • Complete Score - 1891, Gesamtausgabe.

And then the following note, which I will reproduce verbatim, and which I presume is referring to the Romanze in 'Die Zauberharfe' (Was belebt die schöne Welt), and not that in 'Rosamunde' (Der Vollmond strahlt auf Bergeshöh'n)...

"Josef Hüttenbrenner's MS of the arrangement of the Overture to Act 1 (in the possession of the compiler) is entitled 'Zauberharfe', and dated by Andreas Schubert (Franz's step-brother) as composed in 1819. (For this overture, cf. 'Rosamunde,' 797.) Schubert did not receive the honararium of 500 florins Vienna currency, which he was promised by the theatre for the music. The autograph of the Romance in its second version, for concert performance, was at one time in the possession of Josef Hüttenbrenner; a copy of it is still in the archives of the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde, Vienna. Josef Hüttenbrenner arranged it with pianoforte accompaniment, and Max Friedlander published it in this form, 1887, with C.F.Peters, Leipzig, as No.32 of 'Schubert Album', book 7. The third version of the romance, purely instrumental, is to be found at the end of Act 1 in both MS. and printed scores (intermezzo in No.3, with solo clarinet in place of the voice, and violoncello instead of oboe concertante). This alteration was occasioned by the inefficiency of the tenor, Ferdinand Schimon. The concert version may have been written later, in January 1823, for another tenor, Franz Jäger.'

Hope this helps a bit. I've noticed your upload of the (un)finished symphony, and I am planning to print it out and study it carefully in the next few days. I probably won't be near a computer for much of Saturday so it will probably be Sunday and thereafter. (What a relief, communicating on an internet forum to someone in the same time zone and not having to add 7 hours, stand on my head and make a note of the phase of the moon.) Aldona 06:43, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Schubert manuscript autograph (Symphony sketches, D.615)

Thank you for yet another rarity - I hope there's more where you're getting that from.

Have you seen the autographs at Juillard? (See the wish-list, under "Contributor Portal".)

We are definitely heading towards a complete Schubert canon. (I'm working on the incidental music to "Rosamunde" when I get a few minutes to scan.) Aldona 06:28, 2 December 2008 (EST)

I'll be putting up D.708a and D.936a (the other intermediate D major sketch, and the "last" of all) once I can get some better image compression happening - I wasn't happy with 4 pages coming out at nearly 3 MB a page!
Then all we need is for someone to find out how to get hold of Weingartner's version of the E major symphony...
I see what you mean about the JMC: its "Flashy" and a bit more painful than the schubert-online site!
Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 06:56, 2 December 2008 (EST)

I'm at work now - do you have any idea how hard it is to get any work done when I have to keep checking the computer between patients to see what delightful manuscript(s) you have added lately? Aldona 22:44, 2 December 2008 (EST)

No, don't restrict your uploads - restrict my patients instead! I've had some pearlers today....(rolls eyes). They need to learn that there are more important things in the universe than their ear wax and flatulence. Put them to work scanning!

I don't have any bright ideas on where to find more fragmentary symphonies - I have even less access to university libraries than you (I'm an "alumni" member at Monash, but even the Dover reprints of the Gesamtausgabe are for looking but not borrowing.) If you check the latest Deutsch, they should have information on the last reported whereabouts of the manuscripts for each work. Either that, or googling by Deutsch number (i.e. search for "Schubert D.XXX") sometimes yields some surprising information.

OK, back to work... (Your Medicare levy at work!!!) Aldona 23:29, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Schubert symphonies

I left you another dozen messages on the talk page - have fun. Schubert, of course, is practically the only composer of whom we have this many fragments, so it's nice to be having this discussion.Snailey Yell at me Email me 22:18, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Fauré Requiem

Hi Phillip, regarding the Requiem that you kindly put up, for the vocal score on CPDL, is the organ reduction your own or is it Roger-Ducasse's? I'm about to start my Fauré project and am trying to decide if I should scan the vocal score with piano reduction by RD or not in addition to other works. Thanks for your valuable contributions as always. Daphnis 00:10, 21 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Daphnis, it's mine, though you'll find a lot in common with the Roger-Ducasse naturally. The piano-vocal score is afflicted by many of the same mistakes as is the full score, though it's less useful than the full score, which is the primary source for the Offertoire, Pie Jesu, and orchestral Libera me. Regards, Philip @ 19:03, 21 December 2008 (AEDT)
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